I would loooove if we could get top down Zelda games occasionally between BotW-style games. Like how we get 2D and 3D Mario games. I definitely don’t need an Ocarina of Time type of Zelda anymore though. That version aged and doesn’t hold up very well anymore IMO.
this post was submitted on 01 Jul 2023
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I wouldn't say no to a new top-down Zelda, but most of all I miss classic Zelda dungeons. I love BotW and TotK but their dungeons are lame as hell, especially those in TotK. The only slightly interesting one was the Lightning Temple that was the only one trying to have sort of a theme, and even that one can't compare to anything in Majora's Mask or Twilight Princess.
The Yeti manor, the Stone Tower, Dragon Roost, the City in the Sky are all a lot more memorable than any Divine Beast. And then TotK temples are basically the same as those but don't even have the slate interactions.
I haven’t played through all the TotK dungeons yet, but I couldn’t agree more. I was floored by how non-existent the Rito dungeon was.
Oh man I just don't agree. I hope they would find a 3rd party dev willing to take us back to that version of Zelda, similar to how Ubisoft is bringing back an older-style AC between open world releases. The newer ones just aren't my bag.
Interesting. OOT is the only one I've continued to return to.
I doubt they’d trust another company with a “mainline” Zelda game. The IP is too valuable to them. I could see more Hyrule Warriors type games but I reckon Nintendo will keep most of their main development in house, and I’m not sure they want to make that kind of game anymore from what they say, so I wouldn’t hold your breath. One thing I wonder about is what’s next? They made two great open world games now and maybe they’ll move on from that formula too. But to what? Who knows.
Link's awakening was great on Switch. I'd love Minish Cap remade for switch, it's my fav GBA game by far.
Capcom did the Oracle games and Minish Cap, in an era where Nintendo was a lot more guarded with their IP.
That would be great. Don't get me wrong: BOTW and TOTK are awesome and easily some of the best games I ever played. Yet, I'd love some games from other developers. Minish Cap is an exellent example. It was flawless and so much fun.
Eh, other developers are already basically making Zelda games minus the name, and you can play them without giving nintendo money. Unsighted, Death's Door, and Crosscode are all great and take strong inspiration from Zelda, just to name a few.
Crosscode is such a great game. I really should get back to that once I'm caught up on a few other titles.
Keep your eyes open for Mina the Hollower hopefully later this year, it wears its Link's Awakening inspiration on its sleeve. Adorable mouse character and healthy dose of Castlevania mashup from the developers of Shovel Knight, I'll be surprised if it turns out anything other than a slam dunk.
Backed the kickstarter and eagerly awaiting it!
As someone who thinks BOTW and TOTK have a TON of glaring flaws that modern game journalism refuses to critique, this is disapointing to hear. I fear they're just gonna keep making BOTW clones with different powers and I'm never gonna get a traditional zelda game that isn't a remake again.
What flaws are you referring to (I've not played them myself)?
- The worlds are largely empty and boring to explore even compared to some much older open world titles
- movement/controls are clunky
- the combat system is incredibly simplistic especially compared to other games and makes combat largely uninteresting and unchallenging
- the weapon durability system is terrible and not only discourages exploration (to save your good weapons), but also prevents more complex combat mechanics from existing at all
- the plots really aren't good at all
- the shrines are repetitive
- the side quests have no good rewards and often aren't worth bothering with. This is due to any substansial rewards (health and stamina) being locked to shrines, main tools being given to you at the start, a lack of proper progression, and other tools like weapons being disposible.
- Because they give you all the tools at the start of the game, there's really no sense of progression making the game feel stale a lot more quickly then it otherwise should
TOTK doesn't really address any of these problems from BOTW. It does address things like enemy variety, and dungeons/bosses (barely), but both games share so many of the same issues I struggled to get through TOTK.
I disagree with all and every single point you made, to the point that I think the complete opposite about most of them. So I guess those are subjective, not objective issues, and the game is not for everyone. I don't think every game has to be for everyone, but it's clear looking at popularity, sells, and cultural impact, that both BotW and TotK are liked by a huge amount of people just as they are. And I for one would definitely like to have a third installment.
I think if you disagree with all of those points so surely, then you need to play more non-nintendo games.
Obviously you can still love these games even if you've played a bunch of other stuff, but a lot of the specific points I've made are pretty dang objective in the context of the wider gaming space, not subjective. The world is objectively very empty compared to other open world titles (especially new ones but even some that were out in 2017), the combat system is objectively very simplistic, the side quest rewards are objectively not that useful in the context of the game, the progression is objectively very lackluster after the tutorial areas, etc.
You can have a difference in opinion that's totally chill, and you can prefer Nintendo games that's also totally chill. It's just whenever I speak to people about these games such as yourself, and I hear them say things like what you're saying, it's almost always been an indicator that this person is either a huge Nintendo fan or just hasn't played many other titles that would be in this same genre. BOTW and TOTK are good games but they have clear flaws.
The thing is, can you make any objective arguments towards any of them?
Because here's mine:
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Yes, the world is empty and boring, because all you'll really find by wandering around are Korok seeds and "enemy camps" with the same few types of Bokoblin. If you're lucky you'll find a dragon somewhere or oh, look, there's Eventide and Tarry Town, the two only tiny drops of interesting content in this oceanic heightmap of a game outside of the main quest.
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As for clunky movement, I guess they're just frustrated by the jump button? I do disagree about it being clunky but, then, I disagree with the whole principle of controls being "clunky" unless you're talking about something like Dwarf Fortress.
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Yes, the combat system is absolutely shallow. You get a single multi-hit string and a charged up swing for each weapon type and... that's about it. More importantly the way you engage enemies is just... they do their one big swing that leaves them wide open, you knock them around like a ragdoll. It's just not particularly fun. Yes, you can mess around with the sandbox, but for most people that really means "spam bombs" and more importantly, straight-up combat is actually easier while it should be the other way around. If you can just autopilot your way through fighting things it's just not all that fun.
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Weapon durability... really just please come up with an actual argument for it. It made sense in Wind Waker where these weapons weren't being used as "rewards" for exploration because Wind Waker actually had a traditional LoZ style item system. In a game where weapons disappear after one significant fight, don't reward people with a fancy sword after a significant fight. It's just a pointless treadmill.
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The story- The only LoZ games with anything resembling an interesting story are Majora's Mask, Skyward Sword and maybe Wind Waker. I'll always argue that Nintendo never actually had any notion of these games existing in a "timeline" beyond vague references until they realized that superfans kept coming up with their own, and more importantly, these stories are intentionally shallow as hell. Characters have zero depth, the plot is forever a retread of old ideas, there's little to no actual world building beyond what fans have done for Nintendo themselves.
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Shrines repetitive? It depends on what you're looking for, but it can't be argued that they're no classic Zelda dungeons. They're like one teeny-tiny chunk of traditional Zelda dungeon, all split up, all with no context beyond "hey we hid all these spirit orbs away because gameplay". Traditional Zelda dungeons had interesting themes and at least the illusion that you needed to conserve your resources because you were, y'know, stuck in a dungeon.
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Side quests: Like weapon durability, how could you argue that the side quests in these games aren't unrewarding? All you'll ever get from them are consumable items. That really sort of just sucks.
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Getting every tool at the start- Once again, this is just true. An unfortunate result of the "structure" of these games is that there really can't be any major progression because that would prevent the goal of ensuring that you can just wander right over to Gannon and beat the snot out of him with a stick after you wake up without too much trouble. Morrowind worked like this too, if you felt like it you could head right up Red Mountain and try killing Dagoth Ur even though your character probably doesn't even know who the hell he is yet. But it's not going to work.
The final point really gets to me. New items and abilities were such a great part of pre-BotW era Zelda games. I get why they did it. The open world being so large means you aren't likely to want to re-explore the same location again once you get the requisite item. It's a sacrifice they made to avoid gating content off and allowing you to go anywhere and do anything at any time. I just don't really think that sacrifice is worth it.
Give me OOT with the systems created with BotW /TotK. There is so much potential here for freedom here the way you could complete dungeons in different orders, while still adhering to a classic dungeon-with-items Zelda formula. Lighting fires with bombs vs arrows vs thrown torches. Reflecting light with mirrors or a mirror shield. Even using enemies’ attacks or weapons to do so. If this was part of the core design of the game, it could be treated like how sequence breaking is now sanctioned in Metroid games and part of its design.
I think a 3rd party might be able to do this while Nintendo charges forth with their new vision, and this would probably be my favorite style of Zelda game.
What exactly from OoT are you missing in those two games, though? I'm honestly curious, because there's very little that is objectively 'missing' compared to OoT
Not OP but personally I'd love to see OoT done in the style of BotW/TotK on Switch.
Proper dungeons, and more generally, an overworld that feels like it isn't just a vehicle for Korok seeds.
I actually kinda dislike the "do anything in any order" approach of the recent games. I get the desire for freedom, but on the flip side it means that the majority of the content has to be designed to not be too overwhelming for a beginning player as a player could potentially do it first. IMO the puzzle design suffers a lot from this as there are rarely opportunities for puzzles to iterate and expand upon mechanics introduced by prior puzzles. The shrines are especially guilty of this, and even though they all have different puzzles, the loop of introducing the puzzle element and then one or two tests on it still ends up feeling repetitive.
The story also has to make sense regardless of in which order some of the main quests are played and IMO the storytelling really suffers from this. It feels like you're just uncovering someone else's story and doesn't feel like you actually play an important part in it.
I'd love a return to the classic style because I like it when the puzzles get more complex and more elaborate over time. I'd love a game that makes me feel like I'm a part of the story rather than letting me unlock movie fragments of someone else's story. I loved regularly unlocking new tools that suddenly open up new paths or make you able to unlock new secrets in the overworld. It's that sense of character growth and progression that I feel like I'm missing in the newer games.
I still enjoyed the recent games though, and they certainly do also introduce a lot of good things.
The physics interaction, or the "chemistry engine" as they call it, is just awesome and the freedom it allows in puzzle solving is amazing. It turns puzzle solving from having to find the solution to having to find a solution. It removes a lot of common frustrations with puzzles because now when something looks like it should work, it almost always does. It also allows you to think outside the box and let's you come up with ways to skip some puzzles if you understand the mechanics well enough, or to come up with intentionally wacky or overly elaborate solutions that somehow still work. I do hope that if they ever make a new Zelda game in the "old style", they do incorporate at least some of this freedom in puzzle solving in it.
I also love how much more there is to be found in BOTW and TOTK and there is so much more background information given about important side characters and about the various areas of the world, if you're willing to look for it. Side quests and content are also much more plentiful and more elaborate than in the previous games.
So I don't think this new direction is bad, but it has both advantages and disadvantages and there are parts from the "old" style I really miss. Ideally I'd like to see both types of games coexist in the future, similar to how the 3D style of Zelda has coexisted with the 2D style (which too are quite different from eachother gameplay-wise, both also with their own advantages and disadvantages).
This is actually a solved problem and it's kind of a bummer neither open world Zelda went for it.
In the 2008 Prince of Persia game, there were four major zones themed around the four secondary antagonists that you were allowed to complete in any order. Each one had a special kind of hazard in their zone that would make platforming harder, such as the Alchemist who created poison clouds you had to rush quickly through before suffocating. Once you defeat the Alchemist and purify his region of the world, every region that's still corrupted now adds his poison clouds to its list of hazards. So as you progress through the game, the remaining portions of it steadily intensify how hostile they are to navigate. You have a steady platforming difficulty curve no matter which order you progress in.
So let's imagine Breath of the Wild with a similar system. Drive the Windblight out from Medoh and now the rest of the world integrates cannons and drones, drive the Fireblight out of Rudania and now the rest of the world integrates flaming weapons magical barriers, drive the Waterblight out of Ruta and the rest of the world integrates ice hazards and throwing spears, drive the Thunderblight out of Naboris and now the rest of the world integrates teleportation and lightning rods. With each defeated Blight Ganon, their essence is reabsorbed into Calamity Ganon who distributes their knowledge and skills throughout his robot and monster armies and, most importantly, the remaining Divine Beasts and Hyrule Castle.
On the creative end, it means design every level with the assumption of being the full complexity version and then remove puzzles and challenges that don't apply. It's a bigger challenge than designing each as the minimum complexity version as they did but I believe they're up for it and it's not like there are many levels to begin with.
I would love another game similar to minish cap (one of my favorite) but I doubt it
I didn't play it until a few years after it came out and loved it. I was surprised it didn't make a bigger impact than it did. Kind of a footnote now
Honestly, my first console was a GBA and it holds a special spot in my heart
2d zelda is my absolute favorite and I do hope we haven't seen the last of them. I'd even settle for a Seasons/Ages reboot. 😩
Someone in another post suggested Blossom Tales, I'm 2 hours into the first game (which is $4 CAD on sale on Steam) and while it is an obvious Zelda clone, they made some interesting changes and the game is fun.
Seconding this, blossom tales is super fun of you're looking for a 2d Zelda experience, and if you're alright with diverging a lot more but keeping the same vibe, both Tunic and Crosscode are fantastic games as well.
I think I have seen Crosscode before but never really looked into it. Looks like a great game. Currently 70% off and there's a demo on Steam. Will give it a try tonight!
The Oracle games are among my all time favorite Zelda games tbh, I loooove them
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Have you played thru Link’s Awakening on the Switch already?
I have long given up on guessing Nintendo's next move. One thing I'd bet on is they'll shake things up sooner or later. Zelda isn't stuck in this precise genre forever. It's always been in their DNA to surprise us.
I hope we see a bit more of that OoT DNA in the next Zelda. The main thing I miss is the atmosphere and sense of history the older 3D titles had. Areas like the Forest Temple or Fire Temple had this foreboding, mysterious quality to them and you could imagine how they may have been used hundreds of years ago. You sort of had this feeling you were disturbing something that didn’t want to be disturbed. The closest experience I’ve had to that in TotK so far is the Lightning Temple.
I'd love to see more stuff like Triforce Heroes, side games that are a little quirky but have their own charm to them and can be played multiplayer.
I have no doubt they'll make at least 2 more breath of the wild sequels
The formula has proven lucrative. Rip top down Zelda 1987-2013
Don't forget the Link’s Awakening remake in 2019! Does that count?
I really like it but it's way too expensive for how short it is. And considering it's a 1st party title, it will never go on sale for more than $5 off
I feel like a dinosaur from a different era. I truly have yet to appreciate the modern, big, open world 3D games - the new Zelda ones included. The mainline Final Fantasy series, too, has also been breaking tradition. I think that's fine, they're trying something different and they're going for a different demographic and they're adjusting to modern playstyles. But I do wish they continued producing classic style games in parallel. Would love that fabled Farore Oracle of* game!
Maybe they can make a Zelda game that switch between 2D and 3D?
They did something similar to that with “a link between worlds” where you went from the 3d overworld and the 2d painting like world
A link between worlds is kinda that but not exactly
Even if there are no current plans, I think the continued life of things like 2D Mario and Metroid - and the amazing reception they get - points towards a ‘classic’ style Zelda being likely some time in the future.
While BotW was fun, I hope that we get to see more classic Zeldas later on. Here's to hoping!
I'd be up for this, especially if it means that we actually get to play as Zelda for once
It's unfortunate because these are my favorite style of Zelda games.
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