this post was submitted on 09 Sep 2023
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Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelensky has said the death of Yevgeny Prigozhin – the Russian mercenary leader whose plane crashed weeks after he led a mutiny against Moscow’s military leadership – shows what happens when people make deals with Russian leader Vladimir Putin.

As Ukraine’s counteroffensive moves into a fourth month, with only modest gains to show so far, Zelensky told CNN’s Fareed Zakaria he rejected suggestions it was time to negotiate peace with the Kremlin.

“When you want to have a compromise or a dialogue with somebody, you cannot do it with a liar,” Volodymyr Zelensky said.

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[–] Nioxic@lemmy.dbzer0.com 148 points 1 year ago (14 children)

Withdrawing troops, returning stolen land, children, prisoners and paying for damages.. thats all i would accept. Nothing less.

[–] A1kmm@lemmy.amxl.com 31 points 1 year ago (3 children)

A 'Treaty of Versailles' type solution is not a good idea for durable peace though, harsh reparations, despite any sense they might be 'fair', seldom lead to both countries returning to be prosperous democratic countries (and to be clear, neither is a capitulation by Ukraine - that would be seen by Putin as locking in its current gains, with no real incentive not to try again for more despite what the treaty might say).

The best outcome for everyone is if Russia ends up being a genuinely pluralistic democracy (i.e. anyone in Russia can have political views, and the public selects its leadership in free and fair elections). Then Ukraine can normalise relations with Russia, and Russia stops being a threat to democratic institutions across the world as a whole.

I think the best way of thinking about it is not that Ukraine has a Russia problem, but rather that Ukraine and Russia have an oligarch problem (with Putin chief amongst them). Therefore, in a fair world, the oligarchs, and not the Russian people, would pay. It is true that Russians (and indeed some Ukrainians in occupied regions) have been radicalised by the oligarchs, so some kind of deradicalisation would be needed even if the oligarchs disappeared.

Solutions that look to negotiate how to reduce corruption and authoritarianism in Russia from the top are therefore the most likely to succeed long term. Shorter term solutions could include a negotiated end to hostilities coupled with agreements for Ukraine to join a defensive alliance that the oligarchs wouldn't consider provoking - which could be followed up by a carrot approach to easing sanctions in exchange for progressive movements towards genuine Russian democracy. This might give oligarchs enough push to take off ramps to cash in what they have plundered already, and slowly be replaced by less corrupt alternatives going forward.

Recovery from oligarchy for Russia might also by costly for Russia though - essential assets plundered from the USSR are now in private hands through crony capitalism; the best solution would be for many of the major ones to go back to or be rebuilt under state ownership, under genuine democratic leadership. But that is likely easier said than done given the state of Russia.

[–] zephyreks@programming.dev 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Socialism worked in Russia: it dragged hundreds of millions of people out of subsistence farming and turned the USSR into an economic powerhouse. Of course, the collapse of the USSR showed the failings of an aggressively socialist state, but the funny thing is that China already has the solution: a market-based economy with strong state control. Putin doesn't dare piss off the oligarchs though, so we're stuck with this crony bullshit.

[–] mwguy@infosec.pub 4 points 1 year ago

China's also showing the problem of that. The state control is too susceptible to corruption. That's how they have a whole industry if fake construction, fake goods etc... And why they're on the brink of a massive Construction bond related crash.

[–] balderdash9@lemmy.zip 7 points 1 year ago

Solutions that look to negotiate how to reduce corruption and authoritarianism in Russia from the top are therefore the most likely to succeed long term.

This may be true but the negotiations are with a dictator. It's not like Putin is going to step down so that the problem is resolved peacefully.

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[–] kent_eh@lemmy.ca 16 points 1 year ago

And a 3rd party enforced DMZ on the border.

[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Okay then the war would go on and on until your government collapsed. A peace agreement is actually good here given that they just showed they were unable to reclaim much land with their counter offensive.

[–] mashbooq@infosec.pub 16 points 1 year ago (1 children)

They've shown no such thing. Stop believing everything you hear in the media.

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[–] Lols@lemm.ee 7 points 1 year ago

do you live there

[–] zephyreks@programming.dev 6 points 1 year ago (3 children)

How? Ukraine's made like a few square kilometers of progress with hundreds of billions of dollars of funding while Russia has just fallen back from their low ground territorial gains to the more easily defensible high ground.

What leverage does Ukraine even have for those demands?

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[–] Grant_M@lemmy.ca 124 points 1 year ago (26 children)

Russia is a terrorist country. Terrorists can't be negotiated with. #SlavaUkraini

[–] sndmn@lemmy.ca 51 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Russia can't be accepted back into the international community until Putin is in a jail cell or in the ground.

[–] IndefiniteBen@feddit.nl 10 points 1 year ago (3 children)

While I'd like to believe this, if Putin comes to some peaceful agreement with Ukraine, the international community will just wait until people are distracted by the next big news story and then let Putin back in.

I'd rather be cynical and happily surprised than optimistic and disappointed.

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[–] zephyreks@programming.dev 7 points 1 year ago

I mean, by that logic we might as well dump everyone who's started a major land war recently into the ground.

Iraq, Ukraine, Afghanistan... ah fuck, eh?

[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 21 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Slava Ukraini was literally the battle cry of the OUN, which collaborated in the holocaust. Find a different motto.

[–] Grant_M@lemmy.ca 18 points 1 year ago

I block all ruscist trolls. You're up!

[–] Grant_M@lemmy.ca 17 points 1 year ago (1 children)

SLAVA UKRAINI tell your czar putler his time is up. :)

[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] Grant_M@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)
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[–] Veraticus@lib.lgbt 74 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Lol right? I mean why would literally anyone trust Putin at this point?

[–] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 5 points 1 year ago (5 children)

I'm kind of confused why Prigozhin did what he did, even. He knew Putin was going to try to kill him afterwards, I had assumed he had his own play but I guess not.

[–] Veraticus@lib.lgbt 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

His entire plan made very little sense. And he’s dead now so clearly whatever he thought he was doing definitely did not work out.

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[–] zephyreks@programming.dev 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Hasn't he had pretty good relations with, like, literally all of BRICS?

[–] Veraticus@lib.lgbt 8 points 1 year ago (5 children)

So good he didn't even show up there at the last conference in person because of pretty legitimate concerns they'd arrest him? https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/putin-remotely-attends-brics-summit-in-south-africa-while-facing-war-crimes-warrant

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[–] phoenixz@lemmy.ca 47 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Very true. Russia (well, putin) has shown over and over that he can't be trusted, he will stab you in the back and he will murder you.

Hell, the entire land grab from Ukraine was going against accords made where Russia promised to allow Ukraine to exist as a sovereign nation and Russia would get all their nukes. Russia got the nukes and theb went on to invade and steal Crimea and then to just drop all pretence and invade the entire Ukraine.

Just give some shitty transparent excuses, mumble something about non existent Nazis, and just steal lands.

So no, you can't make deals with Putin

However, Ukraine is in a tight spot. They still rely on the west (and mostly United States)for the Weapons and gear they use on the war. Russia has the Republican party in their pocket and if the Republican party (or worse trump) wins the election, they'll at the least stop all Help and likely hand the Ukraine to Russia on a silver platter.

This means they basically gotta gain as much as possible before the US elections, which is why they're grinding on so much without the proper air support they'll start having at the end of the year. It sucks, but it's the situation they're in.

It's impressive though to see how much they advance without air support. Slava Ukraine!

[–] Hexadecimalkink@lemmy.ml 35 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Ironically the CIA believes Putin killed Prigozhin to defuse tensions with NATO for exiling Wagner to Belarus.

[–] vzq@lemmy.blahaj.zone 62 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

If Putin wants to defuse tensions with NATO, he knows what to do.

[–] FreeBooteR69@lemmy.ca 17 points 1 year ago

Right, pullout, like Putin's daddy should have done.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I'm skeptical the government would allow him to do that.

He's not actually a god-king. If a leader ever became a threat to the power structure, he'd be eliminated. Just ask JFK 🙃

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[–] autotldr@lemmings.world 7 points 1 year ago

This is the best summary I could come up with:


As Ukraine’s counteroffensive moves into a fourth month, with only modest gains to show so far, Zelensky told CNN’s Fareed Zakaria he rejected suggestions it was time to negotiate peace with the Kremlin.

The Wagner leader’s dramatic death, which followed a short-lived rebellion that threatened the authority of the Russian president, was a warning to be heeded, Zelensky suggested.

While the United States and other key Ukrainian allies continue to supply weapons to Kyiv, and stress that conditions to pursue a “just and durable” peace are not yet in place, a handful of world leaders, such as Brazil’s Lula Da Silva, have put the onus on Ukraine to end the war.

As evidence for his position, Zelensky cited other countries which have been attacked by Russian soldiers and continue to be partially occupied by them.

Ukraine has made incremental gains in the south amid fierce fighting with Russian troops, accounts from the front lines suggest.

Geolocated videos on Friday showed a wasteland of shell holes, abandoned trenches and wrecked military hardware in the area between Robotyne, Verbove and Novoprokopivka — a triangle of villages that hold the key for Ukrainians to getting closer to Tokmak, an important hub for Russian defenses.


The original article contains 282 words, the summary contains 201 words. Saved 29%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!

[–] zephyreks@programming.dev 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

People really want to see more Ukrainians die, huh?

[–] dsmk@lemmy.zip 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I personally don't want anyone to die, but it's not like Ukraine asked Russia to invade them, steal their land and kill their people.

[–] zephyreks@programming.dev 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You don't want anyone to die, but that's effectively what this is calling for.

But hey, it's just Slavs killing Slavs, right?

[–] dsmk@lemmy.zip 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I'm not Ukrainian, so it's not my place to tell them to just bend over and take it. If they want to continue fighting, then it's their right and I support their position.

I'm also not sure if a compromise is possible when the positions of both sides are so far apart. Ukraine thinks they can win, Russia still thinks they're the 2nd best army in the world and that all is going well, so even if you trust Putin or Russia (which you shouldn't, see the 2nd Chechen War), I'm not sure how both sides can agree on a middle ground. There are still too many cards to be played before we reach that point.

Those who truly worry about human life should keep in mind that if it's too easy for aggressors to start wars, they'll keep doing it because it works. Do nothing, appease the aggressors, and you might end up with even more dead people.

But hey, it’s just Slavs killing Slavs, right?

All I see is Russia invading another country (2014 and then again in 2022) and bringing war, death, and destruction to a land that had its problems but was fairly peaceful. Them being "slavs" matters little here.

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