this post was submitted on 09 Sep 2023
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Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelensky has said the death of Yevgeny Prigozhin – the Russian mercenary leader whose plane crashed weeks after he led a mutiny against Moscow’s military leadership – shows what happens when people make deals with Russian leader Vladimir Putin.

As Ukraine’s counteroffensive moves into a fourth month, with only modest gains to show so far, Zelensky told CNN’s Fareed Zakaria he rejected suggestions it was time to negotiate peace with the Kremlin.

“When you want to have a compromise or a dialogue with somebody, you cannot do it with a liar,” Volodymyr Zelensky said.

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[–] Nioxic@lemmy.dbzer0.com 148 points 1 year ago (14 children)

Withdrawing troops, returning stolen land, children, prisoners and paying for damages.. thats all i would accept. Nothing less.

[–] A1kmm@lemmy.amxl.com 31 points 1 year ago (3 children)

A 'Treaty of Versailles' type solution is not a good idea for durable peace though, harsh reparations, despite any sense they might be 'fair', seldom lead to both countries returning to be prosperous democratic countries (and to be clear, neither is a capitulation by Ukraine - that would be seen by Putin as locking in its current gains, with no real incentive not to try again for more despite what the treaty might say).

The best outcome for everyone is if Russia ends up being a genuinely pluralistic democracy (i.e. anyone in Russia can have political views, and the public selects its leadership in free and fair elections). Then Ukraine can normalise relations with Russia, and Russia stops being a threat to democratic institutions across the world as a whole.

I think the best way of thinking about it is not that Ukraine has a Russia problem, but rather that Ukraine and Russia have an oligarch problem (with Putin chief amongst them). Therefore, in a fair world, the oligarchs, and not the Russian people, would pay. It is true that Russians (and indeed some Ukrainians in occupied regions) have been radicalised by the oligarchs, so some kind of deradicalisation would be needed even if the oligarchs disappeared.

Solutions that look to negotiate how to reduce corruption and authoritarianism in Russia from the top are therefore the most likely to succeed long term. Shorter term solutions could include a negotiated end to hostilities coupled with agreements for Ukraine to join a defensive alliance that the oligarchs wouldn't consider provoking - which could be followed up by a carrot approach to easing sanctions in exchange for progressive movements towards genuine Russian democracy. This might give oligarchs enough push to take off ramps to cash in what they have plundered already, and slowly be replaced by less corrupt alternatives going forward.

Recovery from oligarchy for Russia might also by costly for Russia though - essential assets plundered from the USSR are now in private hands through crony capitalism; the best solution would be for many of the major ones to go back to or be rebuilt under state ownership, under genuine democratic leadership. But that is likely easier said than done given the state of Russia.

[–] zephyreks@programming.dev 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Socialism worked in Russia: it dragged hundreds of millions of people out of subsistence farming and turned the USSR into an economic powerhouse. Of course, the collapse of the USSR showed the failings of an aggressively socialist state, but the funny thing is that China already has the solution: a market-based economy with strong state control. Putin doesn't dare piss off the oligarchs though, so we're stuck with this crony bullshit.

[–] mwguy@infosec.pub 4 points 1 year ago

China's also showing the problem of that. The state control is too susceptible to corruption. That's how they have a whole industry if fake construction, fake goods etc... And why they're on the brink of a massive Construction bond related crash.

[–] balderdash9@lemmy.zip 7 points 1 year ago

Solutions that look to negotiate how to reduce corruption and authoritarianism in Russia from the top are therefore the most likely to succeed long term.

This may be true but the negotiations are with a dictator. It's not like Putin is going to step down so that the problem is resolved peacefully.

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[–] kent_eh@lemmy.ca 16 points 1 year ago

And a 3rd party enforced DMZ on the border.

[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Okay then the war would go on and on until your government collapsed. A peace agreement is actually good here given that they just showed they were unable to reclaim much land with their counter offensive.

[–] mashbooq@infosec.pub 16 points 1 year ago (1 children)

They've shown no such thing. Stop believing everything you hear in the media.

[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago

I'm literally basing this on bloodthirsty weapon manufacturer adjacent media, who's interests are unaligned with saying things are going badly. Even they are getting cold feet on the war, or saying there never was an offensive or the offensive hasn't really started yet.

[–] Lols@lemm.ee 7 points 1 year ago

do you live there

[–] zephyreks@programming.dev 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

How? Ukraine's made like a few square kilometers of progress with hundreds of billions of dollars of funding while Russia has just fallen back from their low ground territorial gains to the more easily defensible high ground.

What leverage does Ukraine even have for those demands?

[–] Scary_le_Poo 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The reason for those small gains instead of hard ones is largely air support. The fighting on the ground is very reminiscent of world war I. That is not a good thing. They may seem like modest gains but in terms of that type of warfare they are pretty huge gains. The problem is that without air support it is going to be a long hard battle.

All that said, it is Ukraine's territory. Russia could pack up and leave at any time.

[–] zephyreks@programming.dev 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

How is Ukraine ever going to get air superiority? The West is basically trickle-feeding then equipment.

[–] Scary_le_Poo 1 points 1 year ago

Yes, that is exactly what I implied.

[–] flaneur@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

If only you also were in the position to dictate this to Russia. Even the US isn't in this position, and will never be.

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