this post was submitted on 01 Feb 2024
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Science

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[–] jarfil 53 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (4 children)

Researchers were able to isolate blood flow to the brain

could also help researchers design improved machines for human cardiopulmonary bypass that better replicate natural blood flow to the brain.

They didn't separate the brain from the body, only made a brain blood bypass.

Guess that wouldn't've made for a sensational enough title.

[–] maegul@lemmy.ml 9 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Oh sure ... all media is likely some form of garbage, especially when it comes to anything other than the main text.

But a blood bypass would surely be the first major and critical step to isolating a brain from the whole body, except for cranial nerves and spinal cord of course, depending on what purpose anyone has for this. I'm presuming there's some advantage that could be had in certain surgical procedures.

[–] jarfil 3 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (2 children)

I guess it could already allow full body transplants for tetraplegic patients... I mean, if they have no muscle control, and get a brain-dead donor, they have nothing to lose and might live who knows how much longer.

Probably a step farther, would be spinal nerve reconstruction, or using stuff like a brain implant to reconnect to the new body. Bridging nerve gaps is one of the first goals, and Neuralink's first human tests are to be performed precisely on tetraplegic patients, so the two might be a good fit.

The article mentions an improved way to maintain blood flow to the isolated part, so that would be beneficial for all surgeries that need isolation (like heart surgery).

Of course the "pump random drugs only to the brain and see how it reacts", is also interesting, just not as sensationalist... and they could even eat the rest of the pig afterwards, if the test drugs don't make it there.

[–] Faydaikin 2 points 9 months ago

That is both fascinating and terrifying at once.

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[–] I_am_10_squirrels 3 points 9 months ago (2 children)

You missed part of the quote

Researchers were able to isolate blood flow to the brain, separate that brain from the rest of the body, and use a new device to keep the brain alive and functioning.

[–] Lowbird 7 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

The article does say that, but the source paper the article links to says this in the Abstract:

Thus, we set out to mechanically render cerebral hemodynamics fully regulable to replicate or modify native pig brain perfusion. To this end, blood flow to the head was surgically separated from the systemic circulation and full extracorporeal pulsatile circulatory control (EPCC) was delivered via a modified aorta or brachiocephalic artery. This control relied on a computerized algorithm that maintained, for several hours, blood pressure, flow and pulsatility at near-native values individually measured before EPCC. Continuous electrocorticography and brain depth electrode recordings were used to evaluate brain activity relative to the standard offered by awake human electrocorticography. Under EPCC, this activity remained unaltered or minimally perturbed compared to the native circulation state, as did cerebral oxygenation, pressure, temperature and microscopic structure. Thus, our approach enables the study of neural activity and its circulatory manipulation in independence of most of the rest of the organism.

And nothing whatsoever about physically removing the brain from the body. It's teeechnically separated from the body's circulatory system - with the experimental, artificial connection replacing the natural one between tthe body's circulatory system and the brain's blood flow - but that really seems to be it.

The article is extremely misleading and only barely connected to the actual study, in short.

I'm personally gonna add Popular Mechanics to my internal list of pop sci rags that can't be trusted.

[–] I_am_10_squirrels 2 points 9 months ago

Ah, thank you. I did not read the original source.

[–] jarfil 2 points 9 months ago

Are you sure? Based on the article, how exactly did they "separate" it?

[–] drwho 2 points 9 months ago

Could've been the journo. Could've been one of the editors.

[–] Midnitte 1 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I wonder if that has implications for drug application... from my memory I believe a common challenge for brain diseases is that most drugs cannot cross the BBB, but if they've made a bypass...

[–] jarfil 10 points 9 months ago

It's a blood vessel bypass to the whole brain, the BBB is between blood vessels inside the brain and brain tissue.

The implication for drugs, is in drug research: normally a drug will get spread all over the body, particularly passing through the liver, which metabolizes all it can, followed by the kidneys, which piss out all they can... so it isn't easy to estimate how much of a given drug actually gets to the brain.

With a bypass, they can inject drugs directly into the brain, and see how they work without "interference" from the rest of the body.

[–] AlternateRoute@lemmy.ca 26 points 9 months ago (1 children)

All I can think of is the sequence in robocop of all the failed robocop experiments.

[–] maniacalmanicmania@aussie.zone 13 points 9 months ago

For anyone wondering this is from RoboCop 2.

[–] breakfastmtn@lemmy.ca 25 points 9 months ago
[–] darkphotonstudio 21 points 9 months ago

TIHI. I love science but stuff like this is creepy AF, and unethical. It's torture in the name of science.

[–] corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca 20 points 9 months ago (1 children)
[–] key@lemmy.keychat.org 17 points 9 months ago

After the experiment, yes. Poor thing.

[–] originalucifer@moist.catsweat.com 15 points 9 months ago

can i reserve my jar now?

[–] HipsterTenZero@dormi.zone 12 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Functioning for several hours doesn't sound good enough to start thinking about humans, lmao. Give me "a couple decades" and then I'll be interested.

[–] JoMomma@lemm.ee 21 points 9 months ago (2 children)

It sounds like the worst imaginable torture

[–] HipsterTenZero@dormi.zone 6 points 9 months ago (2 children)

I hear you, but consider this: robot body

[–] JoMomma@lemm.ee 12 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (3 children)

So, your "self" isn't just your brain, you have an entire nervous system throughout your body AND a secondary system linked to your gut and secondary tissues... Being just a brain isn't even close to all of "you"

You know phantom limb syndrome? Imagine phantom everything syndrome

[–] insomniac_lemon@kbin.social 8 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

I mean yes, I would want an extended nervous system (hotpluggable for other different bodies, if possible) and some sort of symbiotic systems (bacteria microbiome probably needed for an immune system anyway).

But other than that my meats and autonomic nervous system are defective so jar me up. So long as there's a self-termination sequence or something.

[–] jarfil 7 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Counter-argument: imagine a robot body with 8 arms.

By the time you get used to them, you'll have forgotten about all the rest. Neuroplasticity is an interesting thing.

[–] insomniac_lemon@kbin.social 4 points 9 months ago (2 children)

body with 8 arms
Neuroplasticity is an interesting thing

Has there been anything even hinting a 2nd pair of arms would be viable? Seeing people with the John Hopkins MPL (Modular Prosthetic Limb) seems like their control isn't as fluid as a normal arm or even what the arm is capable of. Granted, people with them likely have nerve remapping and have long been without that arm, but it seems like it'd work out better than something new.

I mean there is the second thumb thing, but that uses toe movement.

[–] jarfil 4 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

The MPL is used with non-invasive electrodes, or electromyographic sensors. There is a version where they re-innervated a guy's chest in order to place the sensors, that had a larger freedom of movements and lower lag, but the processing still lagged a bit, and the subject and/or the system had trouble interpreting too many movements at once.

However, even more years ago, there were experiments on monkeys with a 3rd robot arm hooked up directly to a brain implant. Some seemed to get it quite quickly, ending up being able to solve problems like if they always had 3 arms.

Main problem was, the brain-electrode interface: spike electrodes can only be made so long before they risk getting bent on insertion by a neurosurgeon, and over time (months) scar tissue forms around them, limiting the sensitivity, until they become pretty much useless... at which point a test monkey can be "disposed of", but humans not so much.

That's why Neuralink is focusing not on the limbs themselves, which are basically a done deal at this point, but on the brain-electrode interface. If they manage to implant a large electrode array in a way that it doesn't stop working for several years, they'll be able to hook up any kind of limb(s), prosthetics, or excavator arms, with direct brain control.

BTW, the original DARPA research on all of this, is advertised as "helping veterans"... but in reality they're using veterans as test subjects for their actual goals: an electromyographic sensor can detect a pilot's intention to press the trigger, or move a stick, before the actual muscle contracts, presses the trigger, and that gets detected. That way they can shave off several ms from a pilot's reaction time. Direct brain implants, could make that even quicker... if it wasn't for side effect like some Neuralink's test monkeys dying from "continuous vomiting"... something that nobody wants to happen even a few months after having paid for the training of a fighter pilot.

As an aside, all of this is possible because brain neuroplasticity works all the time. Every time we pick a tool, whether a stick, a car, or a fighter jet, after some training, our brains switch to a slightly different "body map" that includes the tool as an extension of the body.

So right now we have both the limbs (including every human-operated tool), and the ability for a brain to adapt to the "modified body"; what we're lacking, is an effective long-term way of connecting the two.

As another aside... the brain's ability to switch body maps, means a single implant should be able to control anything, not just limbs. The question of where is the limit for extra limbs, both in the brain's limitations, and in how many electrodes need to be implanted, is open for now. Some speculate that a full-brain mesh of electrodes, could allow people to use multiple full bodies at once. If they were implanted at birth, it's anyone's guess how a developing brain would adapt to what. There are some development patterns, like stereo vision or hearing ability, that rely on brain structures that are genetically encoded, but there's no saying where is the limit for expanding them, or everything else. Coopting the vision development to insert multi spectral data, including magnetic fields, might not be that a far fetched idea. There is also no reason to think a "brain in a jar" wouldn't grow much bigger than when restricted by a skull, or that multiple brains couldn't be connected and made work in parallel (brain hemispheres already do that, by default humans have "two brains" that are tightly interconnected... octopuses have 9 brains).

[–] insomniac_lemon@kbin.social 4 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

monkeys with a 3rd robot arm

Not sure if it's the same, but I see a video of that and the monkey's arms are partially restricted and still moving (and another where it says reenactment at the start). Interesting, but it might just be a cloned signal rather than independent control.

Though I guess swapping control between sets and some basic commands (hold, gimbal, return to rest pose etc) wouldn't be bad (especially the more naturally it can be controlled) it just seems like something different if it isn't independent control.

full-brain mesh of electrodes, could allow people to use multiple full bodies at once
or that multiple brains couldn’t be connected and made work in parallel (brain hemispheres already do that

I've had the exact opposite thought, multiple brains (in the sense of multiple people) residing in the same body. Usage shifts (to allow rest), partial control, or even simply observation/eyes-in-the-back-of-your-head/backup/advice/talking etc.

That definitely would allow at least 4 arms.

On a sidenote, in the Blender Open Movie CHARGE there's a cool robot design where it starts out with 1 big (no-hand) arm and 2 little arms on the other side and then it transforms that (at 1:40) into 2 normal arms.

[–] jarfil 2 points 9 months ago

I see a video of that and the monkey's arms are partially restricted and still moving (and another where it says reenactment at the start)

I seem to remember a video where it peeled a banana using both an artificial and its own hand at the same time... and also solved a "touch points on the screen" test... but it's been some time ago, so maybe I'm hallucinating it 🤷

multiple brains (in the sense of multiple people) residing in the same body. Usage shifts (to allow rest)

Like what dolphins do, about sleeping with only one hemisphere at a time? I always wondered whether it causes dolphins to have split personalities, or something; supposedly sleep is needed for integrating experiences, so both hemispheres could be integrate some shared, but other exclusive experiences separately.

Or maybe they "daydream", with the awake hemisphere receiving the dreams of the sleeping one, so it can integrate them when it goes to sleep. Would be interesting to learn more about that... also from an AI training integration point of view.

backup/advice/talking

There... might... be a built-in mechanism in all human brains to do just that. Check out the "Third Man Syndrome", and the related "God Helmet" experiment:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_man_factor

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet

[–] averyminya 1 points 9 months ago

Silly thought, but I wonder to what extent drugs would facilitate the process of adapting to new body parts.

I was thinking at first, I would guess that older patients likely have less adaptive reception, while younger patients undergoing limb-additive surgery would seem to be more likely to have the brain adapt to the mechanical limbs. But we can't exactly test extra limbs on youth ethically, thus the drugs. Lol.

[–] HipsterTenZero@dormi.zone 4 points 9 months ago (1 children)

yeah that sounds great, liberate me from the endocrine. Haven't you ever wondered how it would feel to be seperate from all the hormones and animal miscellenia? I think about it a lot.

[–] Deceptichum@kbin.social 11 points 9 months ago

From the moment I understood the weakness of my flesh, it disgusted me. I craved the strength and certainty of steel. I aspired to the purity of the blessed machine.

Your kind cling to your flesh as if it will not decay and fail you. One day the crude biomass you call a temple will wither and you will beg my kind to save you.

But I am already saved. For the Machine is Immortal.

[–] Rhaedas@kbin.social 7 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Or full VR experience online eg. Neuromancer. Though even if the tech was available and fully tested and working, there are many pros and cons to all forms of enhancement or out-of-body existence, or a more extended life.

[–] insomniac_lemon@kbin.social 2 points 9 months ago

I often think about a skeuomorphic VR experience. Like a virtual room inside your own head that doesn't cut you off from senses available to your body, at most it'd just be presented in a different way much like the cartoon/trope (though things like hearing/smell/temperature could definitely stay direct). Even then, I'm not sure if certain things like tilt or momentum etc should be represented or if that should just be always-on.

Though for me I'd want it to mostly just be the equivalent of a body tracker (plus mouse/KB/controller emulation) that's hooked up to a single-board-computer that can be more easily swapped out/upgraded etc (or use any normal desktop). As in no internet directly to the brain. Which would be good enough to play all of today's VR games and jump out of it easier than taking off a headset and trackers.

Direct input of a computer screen would probably be easier and good enough most of the time, though. Then again, it might be cool to invite people into your brain house. Also in some cases imagine controlling your body with dials/levers and/or coordinates (and visualized data) but also still feeling it.

[–] MangoKangaroo 1 points 9 months ago (1 children)

What, an eternity in a digital prison doesn't sound appealing to you?

[–] mp3@lemmy.ca 5 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Could be possibly better than locked-in syndrome, depending on how much your brain can interact with its surroundings. But yeah this could be the stuff nightmare is made of.

[–] anonymouse@lemmings.world 4 points 9 months ago

Imagine your brain triggering a phantom itch but you having no limbs to scratch with.

[–] millie 11 points 9 months ago

That poor pig. :(

[–] Gaywallet 6 points 9 months ago