i think you should just figure out how to present yourself in a way that brings you joy without second-guessing if you are doing it because of internalized misogyny. go toward what pulls you. it's always okay to change your mind.
this post was submitted on 30 Jun 2023
24 points (100.0% liked)
LGBTQ+
6198 readers
1 users here now
All forms of queer news and culture. Nonsectarian and non-exclusionary.
See also this community's sister subs Feminism, Neurodivergence, Disability, and POC
Beehaw currently maintains an LGBTQ+ resource wiki, which is up to date as of July 10, 2023.
This community's icon was made by Aaron Schneider, under the CC-BY-NC-SA 4.0 license.
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
I think it's very easy for presentation preferences to be pretty fluid. Wanting to expand into a new range of styles can be just that. Weird as it might be to say.. The fact that you're worried that it could be internalized misogyny driving it is a pretty good tell that it probably isn't. Or, if it is, you'll likely feel that pretty hard as you explore.
Nothing is lost by exploring some new fashion, (assuming you have the budget to do so). Give yourself the space and time to feel what you feel about it when you try things out. If you find yourself thinking 'everyone should wear this, it's objectively better', that's when I'd be concerned. We live in a world that connects masculinity with power, and while it's important to remember why that's a problem on the large scale, if a masc cut jacket gives you a boost and makes you feel strong? There's nothing wrong with harnessing that for yourself.
see, what makes me think it could be internalized misogyny driving this feeling is that i find myself thinking about how some of my female friends are stupid/vapid for not wanting to be associated with masculinity at all, which is definitely an issue. i feel weirdly… insecure in my masculinity, i think, but being a woman makes that definitely an odd thing to think.
i’m still pretty obviously working through it hahaha, but i think that regardless of what could be driving me, experimentation is probably a good idea.
Looking at what you've said here and elsewhere on the thread, I'd say that at worst, you're dealing with processing socially imbedded roles and assumptions. I can't speak to much more than USian culture, but there's a strong association between masculinity and 'coolness' and with femininity and soft 'airheadedness'. Not getting why people wouldn't want to be cool is a reasonable hang up, and a good thing to know about yourself. Putting practice into holding the idea that "just because I don't understand it doesn't make it wrong" is pretty much the path forward there. For exploration on ways you may want to express, I'm not a fan of tiktok as a platform, but there's a ton of "mascgirl" fashion there. It's cool, primarily street wear looks, being worn by people proud to be GNC women and girls. It does seem to be a pretty not-straight space, but it isn't like a requirement.
thank you, i really appreciate this. i agree with what you’ve said about thinking about others, and i’ve definitely tried to avoid actually saying anything about it to others. just working on internalizing that it’s OK that others around me want to be feminine more often than i do.
i appreciate the resource for outfit inspo <3 i don’t use tiktok, but i’ll definitely look into it there some more. thanks again :)
I often see “fashion” being conflated with “gender” lately, which I think is a product of the very strict gender roles being enforced socially in the US right now. (Girls can’t dress like that! Girls can’t do that job! Girls can’t wear that color! Girls can’t play that sport! Girls can’t wear minimizing bras!) Play with clothing and fashion and style that interest you, and don’t stress over it. Emily Wheatley has a YouTube channel with fashion you might like to check out.
I feel like this is true. As much as it's 'allowed' to transition to be the opposite sex, it's still somehow not really ok for girls to just like to be outside and dirty and play sports or whatever. Wear whatever you want, and screw everyone else.
The amalgam of style, gender presentation, gender identity, and social pressures are impossible for me to parse, so I instead focus on knowing that I can't separate them & do what makes me happy (it's not hurting anyone). You do you!
I'm trying hard to choose the right words to respect your position on the subject. If I end up offending you let me know.
I just wanted to comment about you saying you're not questioning your gender here. The way I see it, you might be, although not in the way I think you mean.
You are a woman. You define your gender by the way you choose to live your life. When you use terms like masculinity and femininity, the definition comes from the society. I see you questioning the gender by your actions, by trying to deconstruct your conceptions.
I've heard a lot that there isn't only one right way to be trans. There isn't only one right way to be cis either. Question yourself, don't judge yourself too harshly, and find your truth.
I know this wasn't what you wanted, but I thought I should say anyway.
i appreciate this comment <3 i think i tend to see some GNC erasure in lgbt spaces sometimes, where people will assume that a masc woman or fem man are trans/nb because of their presentation, and i feel really negatively about that. i think that gnc folks are really important, and idk, suggesting they’re probably not cis (which i have seen happen) despite them being happy with their gender simply because they present differently rubs me the wrong way a lot.
part of why i might be pushing back more than i probably should be against the idea of being cis is that idea- if i do come to the conclusion that i’m not cis, i think i’d feel like i’m in a way betraying my fellow women and gnc folks in a way. that’s pretty silly to say out loud, and i’m only kind of just now realizing it, and i know that it’s something to work on, but then i do also just feel like a woman, which is where a lot of the pushback could also be coming from.
I would say just try it first and see if you like it? I sort of understand your point since I had some internalized misogyny too. But masculine / androgynous presentation is also pretty common. Might even make you more welcomed among some circles. In the meantime, maybe you need to find a way to deal with the internalized misogyny. For me its therapy and reading.
Nonbinary feminine is a label people use, I don't see why you can't for a while and see how it fits? Doesn't have to mean anything more to you than "cis woman isnt fitting me right now, i feel like a nonbinary woman", or it doesn't have to lead to you changing pronouns.
I have one friend who's identity is "i want you to know i am not a woman but i am definitely explicitly not he/him" and they use she/her and they/them right now.
I shave my head because it's comfortable. It has nothing to do with any gender presentation, but people will almost always assume masculine on some end. Do you think being misgendered would upset you? If someone sees how you want to present and calls you an identity that isnt you, how would that make you feel?
Not to discourage you! Just stuff to think about! I find a lot of things can be boiled down in society to masculine vs feminine, but it feels like they have to enforce those boundaries so firmly because they're really socially constructed (fashion and presentation especially!) And really a lot of people feel the same about some fabrics, textures, designs, etc.
Good luck finding your happiness 😊
i appreciate the input :) personally, because i do feel like a woman, i’d say i’m not particularly looking for a label change right now, but thank you for the suggestion!
i think people misgendering as male wouldn’t really make me super uncomfortable or anything, but i’d still correct them because i don’t use he/him.
I think the difference between gender and expression is a good one here - how you express your gender and present to the outside world is and can be totally different to what your gender is - leaning more masculine/butch in your presentation, like you say, doesn’t have to mean anything about your gender.
It can also be useful to detach styles of presentation from the idea of masculine or feminine - when it comes down to it, clothes are just fabric - the gender is something we code into it. I hear you about your feelings around femininity and internalised misogyny - but that could be something you figure out in tandem with your appearance. Humans are complex, and it’s not always possible to figure out one thing after another so neatly, and you might be doing yourself a disservice by trying to figure out your feelings around it first, when you could be trying it and figuring out how you feel about it at the same time!
i appreciate what you’re saying about presentation being different from gender- i’m pretty sure i’m cis, and if i’m going to question that i’d like it to be on my own terms i suppose. but it can be hard to talk about wanting to be GNC sometimes because i feel like others will assume/push that i might not actually be cis. i know this is well intentioned, and could even be true, but idk i just would rather come to my own conclusions than feel like others are pushing me into it maybe.
i see what you’re saying about detaching gender from clothing, and figuring out feelings about femininity/internalized misogyny as i go, but i’m not sure that i agree. i think that part of why i want to appear more masc is that i want to look cooler (i know i sound like i’m 12 when i say that lol) and what’s uncomfortable to me is that im associating being ‘cool’ with being masc and men. like, does that not sound like i have internalized misogyny? same with feeling like my friends who are girls are shallow/vapid when they say they don’t want to use male body wash because they don’t want to smell like a guy. it just feels like i’m the one who’s actually being weird about it all.
i’m sorry this is a little rambly, i’m a bit tired. i can clarify on anything you need me to haha :)
Absolutely - we have to get so much better at letting people talk about gender, presentation, style, and how they feel about it without making assumptions or getting pushy about it. I can totally understand where it comes from - there are so many moments in my life where I feel like I totally should’ve realised about my gender earlier, and I think that eagerness comes from similar experiences and wanting to help, but people need room to have their own experiences. We could absolutely use far more discussion with/from/about cis people with styles and presentations outside the standards and norms - there’s so much room for everyone to feel free exploring and playing more.
I totally hear you, and that sounds real complex! I don’t have any easy answers here unfortunately, other than recommending what it sounds like you’re already doing - having an open mind and feeling comfortable with having a play. I think doing some intentional reflection about masculinity and femininity, how you feel about them both, what you associate with them, and how you feel most comfortable presenting might be a useful and interesting exercise here! Because you’re wanting to look cooler, it might be interesting to do some style research on both feminine and masculine styles you think look cool - remembering that both of those are just social constructs we’ve created and that there are heaps of ways to be feminine and heaps of ways to be masculine.
Happy to help in any way I can!
thank you for the insight, i think these are good ideas. i’ll try what you’ve mentioned and see how it goes :)
Read Halberstam's Female Masculinity. He literally handwaves me out of existence in the introduction because I both break the book's thesis and the trans chapter (which you should skip, to be honest--I normally tell people who might be questioning their gender to skip it, but everyone should just skip it), but it's the only thing I've ever read that fit my experience into a larger arc of history.
You'd be hard pressed to find someone who'd tell you they mistook internalized misogyny for being butch or transmasculine. It's not really something that happens. However, we've probably all worried about it or been told that explicitly. The very reason reading Female Masculinity was so powerful for me was because society doesn't acknowledge masculinity in afab people of any gender, which also kind of rules out the internalised misogyny take--the fact that sexism often targets women for being "too" feminine doesn't mean that masculinity is rewarded--you just get hit differently.
thank you for the rec, ik look into it!
The very reason reading Female Masculinity was so powerful for me was because society doesn’t acknowledge masculinity in afab people of any gender, which also kind of rules out the internalised misogyny take–the fact that sexism often targets women for being “too” feminine doesn’t mean that masculinity is rewarded–you just get hit differently
do you think you could clarify what you mean by this for me? i would have figured that masculinity gets rewarded in women, is that not the case?
Yeah, let me take another attempt at that thought. I think it's still only half-formed.
All this comes with the caveat that I am not a reliable reporter of women's experiences--I functionally was never an adult woman. You're "rewarded" in the sense that there is sexism you get to bypass--I've never been catcalled, for example. You can get a certain ease of access in male-dominated spaces--I had a friend (who, for context, did not know I was identifying as trans at this point.) tell me how acutely exposed she felt when she wore a skirt in one of our courses and followed it up with "but of course it's different for you"--even if I was notionally the other woman in the course, I didn't stand out visually.
But conversely, what is panic about trans people in bathrooms actually about? Policing women's genders, whether they're cis or trans. People keep going "omg, I'm cis and got challenged in a public restroom" and it's like... duh, ask a butch about that. What's mildly interesting about this round of trans panic is that they're going after gender-conforming women.
There are all sorts of social norms that demand a certain level of gender conformity from women. Think about weddings--you certainly can get married wearing whatever you want, but there's sure as hell social pressure to wear a white dress. I have this deep appreciation for Angela Merkel (who I disagree with on, oh, every political issue) because it's really obvious (or I'm projecting) that she has a zillion copies of the same suit in different colors because it's sort of the bare minimum that's "allowed". (Let's be clear--Angela Merkel is plenty gender conforming, but also seems to be "playing the game" because she has to.)
It's worth noting that I'm really looking at gender conformity vs non-conformity. There's quite a large scope of gender presentation that is still "broadly gender conforming", and depending on your frame of reference, we may be talking about two completely different kinds of "masculine". People with ultra femme presentations are going to be outliers, too.