Not a single paragraph about the actual demands of Russia. Which they have stated often enough. Basically they don't want NATO right on their doorstep. This is what this whole war was about. But somehow this is never seriously discussed in western media.
this post was submitted on 10 Feb 2024
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If this war was about having NATO on their doorstep, why is it an invasion of a non-NATO country twenty years after the first neighbours of Russia joined NATO? It's never seriously discussed because it's either a lie or unfathomably stupid, and whichever of those two it is doesn't much matter.
Just for a second, imagine you're a neutral country in eastern Europe. Russia has been fucking with Georgia and Moldova since the fall of the Soviet Union, and now it invades Ukraine for the second time within a decade. Russia has never touched a NATO country despite bordering several of them for literally decades. And then Russia acts all shocked when you say you want into NATO
Yeah and Russia protested strongly every time. But Ukraine was their red line. Just because you didn't read it in western media doesn't mean it didn't happen.
I don't condone the invasion but it was predictable and a colossal "failure" of diplomacy if you look at it charitably. At worst it was a long term plan to force Russia into a conflict with the aid of western media to obscure the reason why this war was happening. Russia is acting just like the US would.
So invading Ukraine fixes what for Russia, exactly? The fastest way to make more of Russia's neighbours join NATO is to show them that they're safer in NATO. Like Finland.
Ukrainians mostly weren't interested in joining NATO until Russia took Crimea. Russia pushed Ukraine towards NATO.
"Ukraine applied to integrate with a NATO Membership Action Plan (MAP) in 2008. Plans for NATO membership were shelved by Ukraine following the 2010 presidential election in which Viktor Yanukovych". Then the Euromaiden protests happened. Then Crimea etc.
It's pretty safe to assume that both Russia and the US meddled in the respective election through NGOs and whatnot. My point is that these are geopolitical games which both sides play and which should be reported as such. Then we'd have a chance to protest for peace negotiations. But as is there is an overwhelming amount of pro-war sentiment.
Public support for joining NATO among polled Ukrainians was very clearly the minority up until Russia invaded.
But as is there is an overwhelming amount of pro-war sentiment.
There's an overwhelming amount of anti-invasion sentiment. People that support arming Ukraine support Ukraine's right to not have chunks carved out of it just because its neighbour has a bigger army.
they couldn't join NATO because of crimea, explain what they really want
I guess ignoring how Ukrainians ran the russian puppet heading their country out of the country just before the Crimean invasion of 2014 is convenient for your point.
Appeasement does not work. It has never worked. It didnt work in Sudetenland, it didnt work in Crimea, and it would never have worked with Donbas, either.
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Then turning Ukraine into Russian territory is a bit counter productive no? That would literally bring NATO to Russias doorstep.
They want a buffer zone. Makes sense in terms of military strategy.
Basically they don’t want NATO right on their doorstep.
NATO is not the anti-Russia club. They're a defensive pact. Why would you be concerned about your neighbours agreeing to defend each other? Like a neighbourhood watch, perhaps. Maybe you'd be upset if you're planning to do the thing they're defending against. Which is all the more reason for those neighbours to band together.
NATO was founded pretty much explicitly as the anti-USSR club. And it doesn't even matter what it factually is - it's what Russia perceives it as. See their final ultimatum: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Putin's_December_2021_ultimatum
That's how Putin claims to perceive it, but that's also what he would claim if his actual goal was to control his neighbours by force. And don't forget Finland and Sweden responded to the invasion of Ukraine by joining NATO. If Russia perceived NATO as a threat, then Finland joining would make them more likely to be attacked. Clearly Finland feels NATO is making them safer or they wouldn't have joined. And since then, Russia has moved tons of their military away from NATO borders and into Ukraine.
In other words, I trust the actions of Finland and Russia more than I trust the words of Russia.
Yes, it couldn't have gone better if NATO planned this all along.
Wait until you hear what that defensive pact did in Yugoslavia and Libya
You know, you have a point. But I'll note both instances had the UN request NATO intervention. Russia could have blocked either with their veto in the UN Security Council, but they didn't.
I mean, no, the UN security council doesn't have any power, they would have still gone through with the invasion.
Not to mention the actual voting on intervention was in the start of 1992, when the comprador Russian government (the same one btw that got promised by USA they won't add former socialist countries to NATO) was choking on USA boot.
which is a perfectly reasonable demand.
but since the US wants blood....
No, demanding your neighbours all remain weak enough for you to continue bullying is not perfectly reasonable at all
as opposed to having your biggest aggressor right in your doorstep?
All of the countries near Russia that joined NATO did so because they already have their biggest aggressor on their doorsteps.
so afraid that they based their energy grids on russian fuel
If buying stuff from the other side is your yardstick, NATO clearly wasn't a threat to Russia. Germany, Italy, France, and America were all some of Russia's largest import sources in 2021.
which all sounds really dumb if russia was that big of an aggressor in the first place. either that or you know, they werent.
Yep, those Russian tanks that crossed into Ukrainian sovereign land were tanks of peace.
Those paratroopers were there to peacefully take the airport too
Too fucking bad.
I don't want you to be on the internet, but that's not a decision I get to make, just like Russia doesn't gets to decide what its sovereign neighbors do. Because they're not Russia's, and don't have to do what Russia says.
If might makes right, then NATO has the right to absolutely roll over Russia and make it their bitch. But that's not how international law works, and everyone except Russia is still trying to play nice, as much as they can.
I don't want people like you in my comments but no one acknowledges that. So weird.
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America will never allow this war to end.
You know who has total power to end this war? Putin. Just get the fuck out of Ukraine and it’s over.
There’s really nothing to negotiate.
They literally were negotiating at the start of the war for this exact outcome: Russia pulls out and Ukraine maintains neutrality.
Johnson threw a wrench in those plans.
Sorry what? You’re blaming Boris Johnson for this now?
One person has the power to put an end to this: the person who started it. Putin.
I've seen this Boris Johnson argument several times on here and never once seen anything even remotely approaching a convincing explanation of what leverage Boris ever had to do this. Like a deal for a white peace with Russia was on the table and Boris somehow twisted Zelenskyy's arm into fighting by threatening to not send weapons that wouldn't be necessary if there was peace anyway?
or because all putin has to do is stop invading ukraine. he doesn't get to invade and then negotiate to keep part of the place he invaded
I think that if Russia got the fuck out of Ukraine, we'd happily let the war end.
Bad take. Why negotiate with an aggressor who is literally invading and trying to absorb a neighbor. You would be rewarding that behavior and Russia gets to stop their unpopular war at the same time.
based US
It is just going to have more death with no gain, how is that based?
what kind of monster calls freeing your people from oppression, torture, and murder "no gain"?
Because its not doing that, they already lost.
Based on what?
U.S. and Ukrainian officials say that the best Ukraine’s military can hope for in the coming year, especially without more American aid, is to defend its current positions. Even so, Biden officials say they are not entertaining the idea of pressing Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelensky, to negotiate with Mr. Putin.
This is the most eloquent. If you can't fight a war for win, then it's reasonable to try to gain some better results through negotiations. But the white masters don’t care about the losses of aboriginals.
My question is why is the US rejecting anything, isn't that a war between Russia and Ukraine?