this post was submitted on 22 Jun 2023
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Beehaw Support

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Support and meta community for Beehaw. Ask your questions about the community, technical issues, and other such things here.

A brief FAQ for lurkers and new users can be found here.

Our September 2024 financial update is here.

For a refresher on our philosophy, see also What is Beehaw?, The spirit of the rules, and Beehaw is a Community


This community's icon was made by Aaron Schneider, under the CC-BY-NC-SA 4.0 license.


if you can see this, it's up  

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
 

We've defederated from :

lemmy.k6qw.com,lemmy.podycust.co.uk,waveform.social,bbs.darkwitch.net,cubing.social,lemmy.roombob.cat,lemmy.jtmn.dev,lemmy.juggler.jp,bolha.social,sffa.community,dot.surf,granitestate.social,veenk.help,lemmyunchained.net,wumbo.buzz,lemmy.sbs,lemmy.shwizard.chat,clatter.eu,mtgzone.com,oceanbreeze.earth,mindshare.space,lemmy.tedomum.net,voltage.vn,lemmy.fyi,demotheque.com,thediscussion.site,latte.isnot.coffee,news.deghg.org,lemmy.primboard.de,baomi.tv,marginalcuriosity.net,lemmy.cloudsecurityofficehours.com,lemmy.game-files.net,lemmy.fedi.bub.org,lemmy.blue,lemmy.easfrq.live,narod.city,lemmy.ninja,lemmy.reckless.dev,nlemmy.nl,lemmy.mb-server.com,rammy.site,fedit.io,diggit.xyz,slatepacks.com,theotter.social,lemmy.nexus,kleptonix.com,rabbitea.rs,zapad.nstr.no,feddi.no

based on the list of instances made by @sunaurus@lemm.ee here - Thank you again for that work, it's highly appreciated.

This is a preventive measure against massive amounts of accounts being created for botting purposes. Most instances banned appear to be 1 user instances so we don't think this will have a great effect on anyone's usage of Beehaw. If you are an admin of one of those instances, feel free to contact us at support@beehaw.org

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[–] alyaza 67 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

here is a list, btw, of tools we'd like if possible:

  • Role for approval of applications (to delegate)
  • Site mods (to delegate from admins)
  • Auto-report posts with certain keywords or domains (for easier time curating without reports)
  • Statistics on growth (user, comments, posts, reports)
    • User total
    • MUA
    • User retention
    • Number of comments
    • Number of posts
    • Number of reports open
    • Number of reports resolved
  • Sort reports
    • by resolved/open
    • by local/remote
  • Different ways to resolved a report
    • Suspend account for a limited amount of time rather than just banning
    • Send warning
  • Account mod info
    • Number of 'strikes' (global and local) and reports
    • Moderation notes
    • Change email
    • Change password
    • Change role
  • Ability to pin messages in a post
  • Admins should be able to purge
  • Filter modlog to local
  • Better federation tools (applications to communities, limiting)
    • Applications to communities to allow safe spaces to exist (people should not be able to just "walk in" on a safe space - similarly to follow requests in Mastodon in a way)
    • Limiting (Lock our communities down from certain instances but still allow people using our instance to talk to people from those instances)

federation tools are our highest priority, but any of these would be welcome additions

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[–] storksforlegs 41 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This is an enormous undertaking (all the moderating) and we all appreciate it.

What's the best way for beehaw users to support you and the other mods?

[–] Lionir 38 points 1 year ago (2 children)

If you're capable, probably working on Lemmy's codebase to improve the mod and federation tools.

If not, donations would be appreciated

[–] HappyMeatbag 22 points 1 year ago

I know nothing about coding, so I went the donation route. It’s like when friends of mine had potluck dinners, but I couldn’t cook, so I just brought the beer lol

[–] JackbyDev@programming.dev 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What sort of tools are lacking? Like, if there was a change you could make what would it be?

[–] Lionir 17 points 1 year ago

We have a list here https://discuss.online/post/12787 and in this thread by alyaza.

[–] retronautickz 32 points 1 year ago (7 children)

Thank you

A question: Is it possible on Lemmy intances to put the reason for defederation beside the server domain on the defederated intances list?

[–] Gaywallet 33 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

nope but that's a great idea for developers 😄

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[–] AfterAll 27 points 1 year ago

Glad to hear it, beehaw owns.

[–] Nullroad 25 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Some risk will be necessary. At some level we do have to let small instances with minuscule communities exist and participate in the wider fediverse, otherwise this whole thing will just fiat centralize.

The cautionary tale is email. In a way, Email is the most successful decentralized protocol. Anyone can technically throw up a client and start communicating with any other email server. The problem of course, is that if you do this in practice, your email will almost never get through to the majority of people. Why? Most of the large providers of email have formed what amounts to a whitelist of trust, and either outright reject participants they don't recognize, or subject those outside participants to incredibly high standards that they themselves to not have to abide by.

So, email has practically become a centralized affair controlled by a few big stakeholders. A lot of small email providers have gotten out of the game in the last decade because they're tired of dealing with it. It's a mess.

I'm not against greater tools, but I'd inject that health is not solely measured by the lack of spam. A spam-free fediverse that's just one instance and its three closest friends is not healthy. Whatever solutions are developed should leave open the door for small instances to still participate and have a honest chance at survival.

[–] WellThisIsNew@fjdk.uk 7 points 1 year ago

Thank you for eloquently putting something that I have been struggling to put into words. I really hope that the big instances don't all end up moving to a whitelist federation model, the ability to have my own instance, with the ability to interact with any community in the fediverse, is what brought me here.

That said, a lot work needs to go into making this platform more resilient against spam bots. The biggest problem I see is that the default instance settings aren't resistant at all. It seems to me that it shouldn't even be possible to deploy a lemmy instance with no email verification, no captcha, and open sign-ups, but here we are.

Perhaps some sort of sanity check in lemmy that disables federation in that case might be a good idea. If someone is competent enough to implement their own spam protection beyond those, they're probably competent enough to fork lemmy and disable said sanity check

[–] gifflen 5 points 1 year ago

The email comparison is pretty apt. I think one of the things they eventually had to deal with was reputation of different entities. Right now it's essentially a boolean situation for the various server admins to identify things that could cause trouble and take preventative steps of blocking or not blocking them.

We would need to answer so e questions around how to quantify what good behavior looks like in lemmy that aren't trivial to game/bypass.

[–] AndrasKrigare 24 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Do you believe this will be a workable model going forward, or are you considering changing to an Allowlist for federation and have instances specifically request to federate?

[–] alyaza 21 points 1 year ago (1 children)

we don't think we need to switch to an allowlist--we actually haven't been hit by this spam problem much if at all to this point--but we'd also really like it if we had better mod tools so we can just flat rule out needing to switch to one ever

[–] blazix@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago

I can also see there being blocklists similar to uBlock Origin or other browser extensions. Except, it will be done at the instance level by admins.

[–] Lionir 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

An allowlist would be nice if non-Allowlisted instances could still be discoverable by people using Beehaw IMO.

[–] TheCalzoneMan 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

And then users from inside Beehaw could request federation maybe?

[–] Lionir 6 points 1 year ago

I mean, anyone could send us an email and we'd do a quick review. Adding then removing someone from the allowlist is easier if they cause trouble.

[–] cecirdr 22 points 1 year ago

Thank y'all for being so proactive. I've been dismayed at the spike in Lemmy users over the past few days. The number of instances popping up with many thousands of accounts is suspicious.

Thank you again for working so hard to keep this space "clean".

[–] Kwakigra 22 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This is what I would hope for. Botnests are going to pop up inevitably and measures need to be taken.

[–] lemillionsocks 17 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Individual instances can do everything in their power to keep their corner of things bot free, but the nature of federation means bots will just create their own instances and strike from there. It's going to be a long game of wackamole but hopefully they can keep the swarm at bay

[–] Gaywallet 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

edit- not sure how this got orphaned and it's own comment on the thread, but that one is receiving more attention so I'll leave that up and get rid of this

[–] nlm 18 points 1 year ago

Appreciate it guys! I've been reading about the guys wave of bots signing up, nice to hear you're taking steps against it.

[–] Powderhorn 16 points 1 year ago

I really expected better from k6qw.com.

[–] Rentlar 14 points 1 year ago

Good call... as our wonderful userbase across Lemmy gets bigger, so do our threats, unfortunately. Hopefully we can better combat spam and botting soon because it's hurting big and small Lemmy servers.

[–] ffmike 13 points 1 year ago

Thanks as always to the apparently-tireless admins.

[–] patchymoose 13 points 1 year ago (12 children)

I have an account with Rammy that I had created specifically because I wanted to be able to interact with both Beehaw and Lemmy.World. It is so hard to find an instance that lets me interact with both, because Beehaw keeps defederating things. Does anyone have any advice on an instance I can join which federates with both Beehaw and Lemmy.world, and isn't going to get on Beehaw's defederating list in a week?

[–] Lionir 18 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Rammy.site has 1.53K users even though it has 34 posts. It is currently being botted. Sorry.

[–] patchymoose 21 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I guess I'm just frustrated because people have constantly told me to join a small instance and not overload the big ones. But then when you join a small instance, it gets botted exactly because it's small and the admins don't have the resources. So now I am back to square one! I don't have loyalty to any particular instance, I just want to see everything from everybody, and it feels like it shouldn't be this difficult. Sorry for venting.

[–] alanine96 16 points 1 year ago (3 children)

In this case the best idea is probably to make an account on beehaw and a separate account on other servers, and just keep the two separate. Beehaw by policy doesn't plan on federating with all servers at all times, particularly very large ones, so you may have to shift to thinking of it as another site you're on that happens to interface with your other Lemmy instances, vs. part of your main Lemmy experience. It's explicitly trying to be separate, so seeing everything at once is inherently difficult.

I've done this as well, and am enjoying separating these parts of my experience and breaking away from the idea of seeing everything at all at once. It gives some intentionality to my internet experience that I felt I was lacking on Reddit and Twitter.

[–] patchymoose 10 points 1 year ago

That's good advice, thank you! That's what I guess I'll do for now until the kinks get worked out of the Fediverse.

[–] Manticore 7 points 1 year ago

Beehaw's intention and policy is why I like beehaw. Its mission is to be a community with high rates of constructive contribution, and that's exactly what I'm looking for - not merely a high-traffic relay station.

I do have an account on another instance with looser federations for tracking migrated or niche communities, but it is beehaw that I load when I want to read what people have to say.

[–] alongwaysgone 4 points 1 year ago

That's what I've come to the conclusion of. I assume I'll have an account here on beehaw, and another on Lemmy.world, at the very least that stay active.

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[–] crisisingot 6 points 1 year ago

probably the main lemmy.ml would be safe. I feel you though, I had the same problem when I lost access to communities on lemmy.world too

[–] retronautickz 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Here you have a list of Lemmy instances, check the defederation list of both Beehaw and Lemmy World to see which is better from you.

Have you thought on joining a Kbin server instead? They're all open to new registrations and you can see and interact with Beehaw and Lemmy World content from there as none of them are defederated.

[–] Manticore 4 points 1 year ago

I'd suggest making several accounts. The beehaw communities are large enough that I don't need to leave beehaw to still see a lot of interesting things, and I have another lemmy account on a different instance for seeing most everything else.

It really doesn't cost anything to have multiple Lemmy accounts, any more than it does to manage multiple email addresses. To a degree, it's even helpful for diversifying the content you see even further - beehaw is curated for quality and contribution; most instances are not.

My beehaw account is where I have my most interesting discussions. My 'out in the wilds' account will mostly be for browsing the wealth of content that is not curated, for better or for worse.

[–] crisisingot 4 points 1 year ago

Also, your admin might be able to reach out to beehaw.org if they are not hosting spam.

[–] BobQuasit 4 points 1 year ago
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[–] HappyMeatbag 13 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I’d almost begin to think about the possibility of maybe respecting someone’s honesty if they named their instance something straightforward like lemmy.bothaven.fu

[–] Helix 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Maybe we should not federate by default but rather have admins send us an email to request federation, just like users have to send an email with a request to register?

Or not federate by default if the registration is open without requiring an email?

[–] Hirom 13 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

This would add friction since it would give lots of work for new instances. They'd need to manually ask federation with every other instance. Besides how would admins vet other instances?

An idea would be to allow any new instance to federate in one-direction mode (eg other instances' user can see public beehaw post). Then after a waiting period automatically move them to read-only bidirectional mode (users see other the other instance's posts, but can't post), then after another period move them to full read-write federation mode.

It would give time for admins to vet the instance during an observation/waiting period, and the level of trust would incrementally increase over time if no block/action is taken by admins.

[–] freeman@lemmy.pub 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I added these to my list as well. I am still seriously back and forth on whether to open my instance up in a week or so.

You all are one of the larger instances. Is there anyt outreach or communications that can be made to ensure I dont end up on said list?

[–] Lionir 10 points 1 year ago (2 children)

You can always send us an email if that ever happens.

That said - if you open, enable captcha and honestly, I'd recommend you do an application process and think about the community you wanna build.

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[–] MaskedMan 8 points 1 year ago

Begun, the bot wars have.

[–] Dandylion 8 points 1 year ago

Side note, life has been so much better in my feed since defederating from the instances that were becoming furry/gonewild heavy. Thank you for your diligence.

[–] mario@fedit.io 8 points 1 year ago

hey, my fedit.io instance is clear now. I deleted the entire db.

[–] StringTheory 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Glad to see we defederated from the rabbitears instance.

Thank you, sunaurus and Beehaw!

[–] trashhalo 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Is there a canonical list of which instances are defederated

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