this post was submitted on 24 Feb 2025
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Reduce Reuse Replace Capitalism (lemmy.world)
submitted 5 days ago by pseudo@jlai.lu to c/zerowaste@slrpnk.net
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[–] SARGE@startrek.website 79 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Every time I hear someone complain about a single tiny piece of plastic on the ground or someone uses slightly more than needed cling wrap, all I can think of is the couple of warehouses I used to work in a couple jobs ago.

Everything comes on pallets wrapped in about a dozen layers of cling wrap. 8-10ft tall pallets.

Every box gets opened, the items pulled out of a large plastic bag, each item wrapped in its own plastic bag.

Those items get put in other boxes, stacked on a different pallet, and wrapped in another dozen layers of plastic wrap.

The pallets get moved to a temporary spot for a few hours, then someone comes up and curs all the wrap off. Moves the boxes onto 4 other pallets, and each of those goes to a separate forklift driver who puts them on shelves.

When the item leaves, it's placed in plastic bags, then a box, then goes on a pallet that gers wrapped in a dozen layers of plastic wrap. Onto the truck for shipping elsewhere.

They have a truck that comes twice a day to replace a shipping container filled with plastic.

So much plastic, every day, all day, they only close for Christmas and 4th of July.

Am I still going to use anything but plastic wherever possible? Sure. Am I still going to pick up that piece of plastic and put it in the recycling bin? Absolutely.

Companies suck and will blame you for their shitty treatment just like every abuser does.

[–] commander@lemmings.world 1 points 3 days ago

Keep in mind, plastic is everywhere partly because it's a petroleum byproduct.

[–] Kolanaki@pawb.social 13 points 4 days ago (2 children)

One of the many other problems with recycling besides this tidbit, is the fact that most people don't even follow the first two instructions before recycling. Nobody reuses anything and nobody has reduced their consumption.

[–] commander@lemmings.world 1 points 3 days ago

I'm always reminded of the iCarly episode about recycling.

[–] qjkxbmwvz@startrek.website 3 points 4 days ago (1 children)

There's a bulk food store near me and it allows BYO containers (or you can use one of their compostable bags). It's great! A little bit more work (you need to tare your/container write down the empty weight), but you get your goods in the container of your choice.

[–] WorldlyCaregiver 3 points 4 days ago

That would be a zero waste store, there are a few of those around. To find one, this website has an overly generous list of such stores in the United States. Many of the stores listed are not actually zero waste stores though (i.e. Natural Pantry). So for those who want to use that list to find a zero-waste store, it is important to note the stores near them and go to them one by one (or look them up) to see if they are zero-waste and what they offer. If a suitable store is found, then some groceries can be bought without disposable packaging.

This does come at a price, though. The store I use has prices that are, on average, about 3 times higher per unit weight than the bargain brand at a regular store. I can afford that, and for some consumers an organic/local/premium/etc. quality is worth it, but many people cannot afford it. The current system of excessive single-use packaging is unfortunately very labor-efficient (which is why it was adopted in the first place), and that shows in the prices.

[–] gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de 10 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (2 children)

Recycling is chemically possible at very high temperatures and pressures; it's just energy intensive and wasn't financially feasible until just about now, when solar energy can offer cheap energy.

We'll see how this will develop in the future. For the point of oil consumption (and therefore CO2 emission), plastics is only like 3% of oil consumption anyways (other 97% is fuel for vehicles). For the point of pollution, you don't need recycling, just collecting and combusting at high temperatures (to fully oxydize it and not leave any toxic fumes.

[–] Swedneck@discuss.tchncs.de 9 points 4 days ago

We recently built a plastic recycling facility here in sweden which recycles.. 12 types of plastic i think? several of which were basically not possible before.

so yeah it's definitely possible to recycle plastics, countries have just been refusing to actually take measures to make it happen.

[–] dumnezero@piefed.social 3 points 4 days ago

just collecting and combusting at high temperatures

You mean GHG pollution.

[–] commander@lemmings.world 3 points 3 days ago

I used to recycle, then I moved out on my own and found out I have to pay extra for it.

Should be paid for by these corporations, imo.

[–] dumnezero@piefed.social 10 points 5 days ago (6 children)

what's the fix?

[–] gon@lemm.ee 38 points 5 days ago (1 children)

For the harm that's already been done? Time.

For the future? Regulation.

[–] dumnezero@piefed.social 6 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Regulation

that's extremely vague, what does the regulation do? Does it limit types of plastic? Uses of plastic? Production quantities? Waste allocations?

[–] gon@lemm.ee 10 points 4 days ago (1 children)

I'm not a plastic or environmental specialist, so I can't say. Surely you don't expect me to know all the answers, do you? Come on, now.

I'd think regulation would encompass all the things you mentioned, possibly more like subsidizing the use of non-plastics in industrial applications, for example.

[–] dumnezero@piefed.social 1 points 4 days ago (1 children)

My point is that regulations are likely insufficient.

What we really need is a reduction in consumption. We need to stop living life as "dedicated waste manufacturers".

Here's a useful article to help get over the limits of regulations: https://donellameadows.org/archives/leverage-points-places-to-intervene-in-a-system/

[–] gon@lemm.ee 6 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Did you link the wrong thing?

Obviously, individuals also matter. Vote with your wallet, always.

However, pointing the finger at consumers seems fruitless? People will do the most convenient thing, not the best thing. As such, I'd suspect it best to make the most convenient thing equal the best thing.

I'm not trying to say that pushing for anti-consumerism and sustainable consumption is wrong---as a matter of fact, I think that's great and it's something I do, personally---but I do think that, at the end of the day, if disposable plastic bags are handed out, people will use them; if fruits are wrapped in plastic, people will use it; if plastic straws come with drinks, people will use them; if disposable cutlery is for sale, people will buy it. The solution is, therefore, to regulate this stuff. Maybe ban it, even.

[–] dumnezero@piefed.social 2 points 4 days ago

I linked to the right thing, a great introduction to understanding how to change systems:

PLACES TO INTERVENE IN A SYSTEM

(in increasing order of effectiveness)

12. Constants, parameters, numbers (such as subsidies, taxes, standards).

11. The sizes of buffers and other stabilizing stocks, relative to their flows.

10. The structure of material stocks and flows (such as transport networks, population age structures).

9. The lengths of delays, relative to the rate of system change.

8. The strength of negative feedback loops, relative to the impacts they are trying to correct against.

7. The gain around driving positive feedback loops.

6. The structure of information flows (who does and does not have access to information).

5. The rules of the system (such as incentives, punishments, constraints).

4. The power to add, change, evolve, or self-organize system structure.

3. The goals of the system.

2. The mindset or paradigm out of which the system — its goals, structure, rules, delays, parameters — arises.

1. The power to transcend paradigms.

Regulations are important, but low(er) impact.

[–] HubertManne@moist.catsweat.com 20 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Get rid of them. I was very young but existed in the 70's and the grocery store did not have all the plastics and there was plenty of convenience in foods. Its amazing what glass, paper, and aluminum can do. Glass was not even recycled usually. Had a deposit added to the cost and got it back when you returned it to the store where the person supplying the item took them back and they were washed and reused. It was why bottle caps were so prevalent.

[–] Jayjader@jlai.lu 10 points 5 days ago (1 children)

glass was not even recycled usually

Yeah, we would reuse it (as the order implies in reduce, reuse, recycle). Recycling glass takes wayyyyyyy more energy than cleaning it. But the glass makers benefit more from access to cheap broken glass, so we get them lobbying so that glass recycling drop-off/containers almost force you to shatter every bottle you put into them...

[–] commander@lemmings.world 1 points 3 days ago

Cultural problems require cultural solutions.

[–] hash@slrpnk.net 10 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Significant reduction in single use plastics, banning plastic use in certain products (even non-single-use), and a drastic increase in accountability for producers and consumers.

[–] Lodespawn@aussie.zone 2 points 4 days ago (2 children)

You don't need to ban plastics, you just regulate the people making things to have to ethically dispose of the waste generated by their products. They will pretty rapidly switch to something they can actually dispose of. The manufacturer needs to be responsible for the full life cycle of their products.

[–] dumnezero@piefed.social 3 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (1 children)

They don't actually have alternatives in the single-use realm. The result must be an end to it, bankruptcy from their perspective.

If we replace plastic containers with containers that are paper covered in PFAS and similar substances, we're not solving the problems.

[–] Lodespawn@aussie.zone 2 points 4 days ago (1 children)

I mean if they have to dispose of it properly then they are either going to try it on with PFAS coated paper and realise there's no way to get rid of it or they are going to find better alternatives. It hinges on real penalties, fines for companies, fines and jail time for CEO and wider C-suite for breaches.

[–] dumnezero@piefed.social 1 points 4 days ago

If we know that there are basically no alternatives, then we don't have to waste time and misery chasing after each CEO and corporation in detail.

[–] hash@slrpnk.net 1 points 4 days ago (1 children)

I disagree that full responsibility needs to go on the manufacturer. An undeniable issue with our current system is that consumers expect to throw all plastic in one bin that isn't the garbage and be done with it. There are lots of different ways to set up responsibility, but on top of production changes plastic "recycling" will need to change significantly from the user perspective. Things like stronger deposit programs would be a bare minimum to start addressing the consumer side (in tandem with measures addressing production of course)

[–] Lodespawn@aussie.zone 2 points 4 days ago

Arguably the manufacturers should be responsible for paying to collect the waste generated by their products and that in itself should be regulated to ensure they don't take the piss. Industry has proven time and time again that they can't be trusted with self regulation and will always choose the maximal short term profit path.

[–] solo@slrpnk.net 5 points 5 days ago (2 children)

For capitalism: horizontal organizing

For plastic waste: plastic-eating fungi

[–] laurelraven@lemmy.zip 5 points 4 days ago

I prefer

For capitalism: capitalist-eating fungi

[–] dumnezero@piefed.social 4 points 4 days ago

For plastic waste: plastic-eating fungi

It's going to be fun when I have to spray my computer devices with fungicides.

[–] nonailsleft@lemm.ee 3 points 4 days ago

Better government

[–] millie 4 points 4 days ago

Too far. Too far.

It's on now.

[–] HawlSera@lemm.ee 4 points 4 days ago (2 children)

This is why I need to remember the based takes I had when I was young.

I always thought it was silly that we were told to recycle because, who could do anything with an old half-melted plastic bottle of coke? But I assumed the people who owned the companies knew something I didn't.

I still recycle because it's just the right thing to do, but... I wonder what other lies I accidentally called.

[–] commander@lemmings.world 1 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

I wonder what other lies I accidentally called.

Start looking into the meat and dairy industries.

Did you know cholesterol is found almost exclusively in animal products?

Did you know cows have to be pregnant to produce milk, so dairy cows are artificially inseminated throughout most of their lives?

[–] pseudo@jlai.lu 2 points 4 days ago

I'm sure you called many...

[–] jlow 3 points 4 days ago

Also show me a place where plastic recycling rates are over 10%

Use less or go for (less poisonous!) alternatives to plastic.

[–] umbrella@lemmy.ml 1 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (4 children)

alright, ive been hearing about that. tell me something:

i grew up hearing the "save water!!11!!!!" bullshit was, well.. bullshit.

is the "recycle" thing also bullshit? how so?

[–] AnarchistArtificer@slrpnk.net 6 points 4 days ago

"is the "recycle" thing also bullshit? how so?"

The only honest answer to this is "it's complicated". If I had to give an oversimplified binary answer, I'd say yes, it is a bit bullshit.

To attempt to summarise part of why:

  • There are so many different kinds of plastics that actually making recycling supply chains work is difficult
  • At the household waste processing level, I've seen a few investigations that show plastic that could be recycled being sent to landfill, or incineration. This is in part because of inconsistent practices by households sorting their trash, meaning the waste processing plant has to do a heckton of work to ensure that everything is indeed recyclable. This may vary depending on one's local authority
  • Plastic recycling is far more economical at the commercial/industrial level, especially because there's less work/error in the processing side of it.
  • I think it depends on the particular plastic, but I think that plastic can generally only be recycled once, and recycled plastic is often lower quality than "virgin" plastic. This doesn't mean we shouldn't recycle plastic, but that we should be aware that it has its limits.
  • Glass and aluminium have less of these issues than plastic, but it's still more complex than most realise. Logistics of processing recycling is hard and often expensive.

Along those lines, I think the main point I want to highlight is that the phrase that was often pushed is "reduce, re-use, recycle". I think that far too much emphasis has been put on recycling in recent years, especially given the complexities and caveats with recycling that I outlined above. "Reduce, re-use, recycle" is explicitly anti-consumerist, which is why I think the rhetoric has morphed to emphasise the recycling aspect, despite recycling ideally being the last item in that list. Reduce how much stuff you're using by being mindful in your purchases, especially with plastics and the like; then consider how you could re-use stuff that you already have; only then should recycling be entering the picture.

My opinion is that changes like this are less about reducing the waste products, but more about how this kind of mindful anti-consumerism shapes us; modern society has made consumers of us all, and we desperately need to resist that as much as possible. It's hard to do because corporations have become very skilled at co-opting eco-conscious rhetoric and "green-washing" consumerism: they placate us by advertising that the plastic products they're selling us are made with 10% recycled plastic, as if that makes much difference to the fact the product will probably end up in landfill

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