this thread is a disaster from front to back, so it's being locked.
this post was submitted on 25 Sep 2024
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What's the plan op? Do you really think you're gonna diversify opinion or change minds by being this combative in a thread you started, and had to have known was a spicy topic to begin with?
There are meaningful discussions to be had on the general topic but I don't think your approach was very effective
Yariv Mozer, the director of We Will Dance Again, a documentary film about the Nova festival, said that he had to agree with the BBC to not describe Hamas as a terrorist organization if he wanted it to air, according to an interview with The Hollywood Reporter on Tuesday.
The film, which is set to broadcast on the BBC on Thursday, contains unseen footage of the Hamas massacre at the festival on October 7. It was commissioned by BBC Storyville.
Mozer told The Hollywood Reporter that this was a concession he had to make if he wanted the film to be seen by the British public.
There's the actual reason if anyone is interested.
Personally, if the documentary focuses on what Hamas did on that one day without addressing the actual reasons and events that led up to it as well as everything that happened afterwards than I would say it's pretty biased. And I don't mean biased in a pro-Hamas way.
There's the actual reason if anyone is interested.
That merely repeats the headline, it isn't a reason.
without addressing the actual reasons and events that led up to it
Then it would need to include Palestinians starting war against Israel then losing a disproportionate number of citizens then always repeating the failed attacks expecting a different result? There is a word for that.
Most of the Jewish population of Israel are those fleeing persecution from Muslim nations (not from Europe as is commonly believed).
The only persecution of Gazans in the few years leading up to Oct 7 was the border checks since they have imported munitions in the past which they attacked Israel with.
How far back in history do you want to go in a 90 minute documentary about the Nova massacre? It doesn't actually matter now regardless of what each side says: Jews ain't going anywhere and neither are the Arabs. A two-state solution is the only option.
You're presenting this all as people fleeing but even your wiki link presents a bunch of "pull" factors, making some of your text blue doesn't automatically mean you're providing good evidence for your arguments.
I'm not sure proffering apologetics for war crimes is appropriate for Beehaw. Especially not when you clearly label Hamas as a terrorist organization and specifically not a legitimate steward of the civilian population's will.
I'm not sure proffering apologetics for war crimes is appropriate for Beehaw.
ICC has identified (but not prosecuted) war crimes by Likud's Netanyahu and Hamas' Sinwar.
you clearly label Hamas as a terrorist organization
I named countries which proscribe Hamas as a terrorist organization. You obviously don't agree with these governments and it is fair enough to express it like that but not fair to try to bully me into agreeing with you.
a legitimate steward of the civilian population's will.
Hamas has not allowed elections in Gaza since they won power in 2007.
Then it would need to include Palestinians starting war against Israel then losing a disproportionate number of citizens then always repeating the failed attacks expecting a different result? There is a word for that.
There already was a war. Death by a thousand tiny cuts is still a conflict. Just because the world didn't talk about it doesn't mean it didn't exist. Palestine was already called the "largest open air prison" before the war started. A documentary that doesn't at least touch on the treatment of Palestinians by Israel is like releasing a documentary about what the Black Lives Matter protests did to the cops in America and their image without explaining the history of blatant abuse they perpetrated on the African Americans.
The only persecution of Gazans in the few years leading up to Oct 7 was the border checks since they have imported munitions in the past which they attacked Israel with.
Just a little excerpt:
The comprehensive report, Israel’s Apartheid against Palestinians: Cruel System of Domination and Crime against Humanity, sets out how massive seizures of Palestinian land and property, unlawful killings, forcible transfer, drastic movement restrictions, and the denial of nationality and citizenship to Palestinians are all components of a system which amounts to apartheid under international law. This system is maintained by violations which Amnesty International found to constitute apartheid as a crime against humanity, as defined in the Rome Statute and Apartheid Convention.
How far back in history do you want to go in a 90 minute documentary about the Nova massacre?
The length of the documentary is not an excuse. If the director wants to make a documentary on what happened that day then that's fine. But explaining the events as if they happened in a vacuum is not good journalism.
Your link is to Amnesty — one of the many "human rights" organizations unwittingly supporting terrorists who hijack and abuse our good-will and free speech in the West.
Read about Akhmed Chatayev. Arrested in Sweden with guns and explosives. Arrested in Ukraine with terrorist material. Arrested in Georgia for participating in a terrorist attack (Lopota incident). Arrested at the Bulgaria/Turkey border. Amnesty basically bailed him out. He's the mastermind of the ISIS attack on the Istanbul airport (almost 50 dead). Luckily Georgian police eventually killed him in the end.
Amnesty international is a credible source and the atrocities Israel has committed to the Palestinian population is well documented in the report I provided along with many others.
I give you the actions of an entire government over decades and during one of the most brutal wars in modern history and you give me the actions of a single individual to counter it? Really?
The Amnesty article cites no examples of government mistreatment of Arabs in Israel.
Arabs in Israel are equal in law to Jews (except for military conscription). Arab LBTQI+ find refuge in Israel. Arab women and schoolgirls in Gaza have to wear a hijab but not the Arabs in Israel (where they can even dance if they like).
the border checks since they have imported munitions in the past which they attacked Israel with.
this is an outright lie.
Just because some people use hyperbole like "world's largest outdoor prison" doesn't make what I said a lie. Blame Egypt for controlling the Rafah border not Israel. They have seen what happened to Jordan and Lebanon when they allowed Palestinians in.
I give you a report documenting how Israel performed "massive seizures of Palestinian land and property, unlawful killings, forcible transfer, drastic movement restrictions, and the denial of nationality and citizenship to Palestinians" and you're response is to say the article cites no examples of mistreatment of Arabs in Israel? I tell you how officials have described Palestine as the largest open air prison and you dismiss it as hyperbole?
I had a feeling you were some kind troll but was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. This comment of yours just confirmed my suspicions. I'm not going to bother talking with you any more as it's clear you are completely determined to wash over the sins of a government and that you have absolutely zero morals or ethics. Anybody reading this thread will be able to see just how wrong you are and how pointless it is to talk to someone like you, or even respect you.
I give you a report
You linked to an article which I looked at. It in turn linked to a 128 page report which I did not read because it does not have a Gaza section - and Gazan conditions leading up to Oct 7 was what you were responding to. I didn't have time today to read the whole thing just in case.
Gaza was not anything like an "open air prison" until 2007 when Egypt closed the Southern Border shortly after Hamas took over: that was not Israel's fault. Water supply issues in Gaza are caused by Hamas who boasted in a 2021 propaganda video showing themselves digging up water pipes to turn them into missiles. From 2014 to 2020, U.N. agencies spent nearly $4.5 billion in Gaza which could have been used to build civilian infrastructure but Hamas preferred to spend it militarily on its stated goal of ethnic cleansing of Jews "from the river to the sea".
The Amnesty article cites no examples of government mistreatment of Arabs in Israel.
the article cites no examples of mistreatment of Arabs in Israel?
The article. Not the report.
Israel performed “massive seizures of Palestinian land and property, unlawful killings, forcible transfer, drastic movement restrictions, and the denial of nationality and citizenship to Palestinians”
In Israel is was what you were meant to be responding to. There are plenty of Palestinians with citizenship in Israel. I think the West Bank settlement expansion is unjust but that is not the topic here.
you are completely determined to wash over the sins of a government
Nope I was trying to stick to the topic of BBC going against their own government's designation of Hamas as terrorists. You would rather talk about wider issues, so...
Both sides are "losing the war": Back in December there was a great prescient article criticising Israel and a companion article criticising Hamas.
Very few ProPals seem to do balance whereas plenty of people who try to understand Israel's difficulty (in avoiding being wiped out by Hamas) do criticise Israel.
Netanyahu's Likud party only won 11% of the vote and it took 5 attempts at a working coalition for them to resume power in the last election. There were two arrest warrants against him for corruption and over 100,000 citizens protested against the government changing the law to allow them to override their equivalent of a constitution.
which I did not read because it does not have a Gaza section
It's quite clear you purposefully do not read a lot of anything. The section you say is missing regarding Gaza is literally in the table of contents:
Since you seem to neglect to do a lot of reading, OPT = Occupied Palestinian Territories.
Like I said, a sad little troll with no moral qualms or ethical standpoint.
Occupied Palestinian Territories
Gaza was not occupied prior to the terrorist attacks of October 7th.
Then why does Amnesty International label it as such?
It is odd, isn't it?
You tell me. You're the one contradicting them.
Israel forcefully removed all of their settlers from Gaza in 2005. They essentially ethnically cleansed themselves. There were no IDF soldiers on Gazan soil and the administration of the strip was entirely in the hands of Hamas from that point onward. Under no definition of the word occupation was the strip occupied after 2005.
In 2005, 21 Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip and four Israeli settlements in the West Bank were unilaterally dismantled.[1] Israeli settlers and army evacuated from inside the Gaza Strip, redeploying its military along the border.[2] The disengagement was conducted unilaterally by Israel, in particular, Israel rejected any coordination or orderly hand-over to the Palestinian Authority.[3] Despite the disengagement, the Gaza Strip is still considered to be occupied under international law.
Notice how this particular sentence is not sourced and how there is an entire section in the article further down explaining just how controversial it is to call the area occupied.
Can you explain to me, in your own words, how not having any boots on the ground amounts to occupation under international law? If you're trying to make the case that the border controls and wall were occupation, then I would like to preemptively remind you that 1) border controls are not occupation, but the right of any sovereign nation and 2) those were a direct reaction to a series of terrorist attacks, including stabbings, shootings and suicide bombings, as well as numerous rocket attacks. Nobody would deny a nation the right to enact measures that prohibit those from occurring on their soil against their citizens. If anything, October 7th showed that this often criticized wall wasn't even remotely sufficient to counter the threat terrorists from the strip posed against Israel.
The United Nations, international human rights organizations and many legal scholars regard the Gaza Strip to still be under military occupation by Israel.[13] The International Court of Justice reaffirmed this position, stating that the occupation of the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza Strip are unlawful and its discriminatory laws and policies against Palestinians violate the prohibition on racial segregation and apartheid. The ICJ rejected the claim that Gaza was no longer occupied following the 2005 disengagement, on the basis of Israel's continued control over the Gaza Strip.[106][107]
In Jaber Al-Bassiouni Ahmed v. The Prime Minister, the Israeli Supreme Court assumed that occupation had ended with the disengagement but did not explain the theory or facts that led to this conclusion.[108][109] After the disengagement, Israel claimed that its occupation of Gaza had ended, but also acknowledged that Gaza was not a sovereign state. It labeled Gaza as a "hostile entity," a status that neither grants Palestinians the right to self-governance and self-protection, nor obliges Israel to protect Gaza's civilian population. Israel uses this argument to deny Palestinians of full self-governance as well as the use of military force to suppress any resistance to Israeli control.[110]
I don't need to explain it in my words since more qualified people did a much better job explaining it and I have yet to see any kind of fact, source, or piece of information which would lead me to believe the above is incorrect.
You might perceive this as annoying, but can't you see that I'm trying to get something more out of you, that I'm trying to encourage you to be at least a tiny bit intellectually curious, to think about this just a little bit? Hell, I would be ecstatic to sense anything resembling uncertainty from you. I might not always be showing it, but I am always second-guessing myself, am never even remotely certain about how I'm seeing the world. I am engaging in these discussions, because I want to both challenge and be challenged, but I've been mostly disappointed. There's nothing I crave more than a good discourse, a proper exchange of words and ideas. Civil, but not to the point that genuinely valuable opinions are being held back.
As a last attempt to get anything resembling a proper opinion based on your own thoughts instead of that of others out of you: Can you name any other occupation similar to this alleged one? Have you ever thought about finding comparable occupations? I've tried finding one that comes close or is even remotely similar, but haven't been able to.
The often cited South African Apartheid really doesn't compare, because there are Palestinian citizens living in Israel with, at least on paper, full rights (and minus one obligation - they don't have to serve in the IDF, but can voluntarily sign up, which a couple thousand are doing every year, more so after October 7th). There's even a Palestinian supreme court justice. If there was actual Apartheid, then this wouldn't be the case. In practice, Israeli Arabs are similarly discriminated against as people of color in countries like the US, but nothing in Israel comes close to what South Africa did to its Black citizens or what Jim Crow laws did in America. Feel free to pick this opinion of mine apart though (but please, with your own words for once - if I wanted to read Wikipedia articles, I would do this myself).
You can at least clearly see the difference between Gaza and the West Bank, right? In the West Bank, there's an agreement with the ruling Fatah for Israel to assist in security matters, although in reality, the relationship is more that of a vassal proto-state that is too weak to both secure its own territory without being overthrown and meaningfully resist Israeli military supremacy after having lost against it multiple times in the past. Israeli soldiers and police officers are routinely carrying out raids against terrorists together with members of Fatah security forces. They are also setting up road blocks, impairing the movement of the Palestinians living there not just at the borders to Israel, but within the territory as well (seemingly randomly and often to a paralyzing degree - I've read reports of pregnant Palestinian women failing to get to hospitals in time, for example), etc. There are settlers in parts of the West Bank trying to expand their territory, often using violence and with help or at least tolerated by the IDF and Israeli police (and they are further emboldened since the start of the war). This is more or less (save for some contradictory peculiarities, like the Fatah's controversial martyr's fund) what a "normal" occupation looks like and has always looked like even going as far back as antiquity, down to getting rulers from the local population to do some of the dirty work for you. None of this applied to Gaza before this war - but I wouldn't be surprised if that's how Gaza might be governed and ruled after the defeat of Hamas, except with a likely even stricter security regime.
Meanwhile, another territory actually occupied by Israel, the Golan Heights, is effectively administered like any other part of Israel's internationally recognized territory, with all Israeli laws applying to it since 1981. Locals there, including non-Jews like the Druze, are citizens of Israel, very much unlike Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza. This is the kind of occupation that is labelled as such according to international law, because most nations outside of Israel don't recognize it as actual Israeli territory. Israel annexed it for purely strategic reasons from Syria (making it arguably a cause separate from the Palestinian one), since otherwise, its heartland would be extremely vulnerable to artillery and other attacks from this area. It's one of those cases where one can simultaneously acknowledge the clearly illegal nature of this occupation/annexation, while at the same time admitting that this tiny nation with extremely disadvantageous borders and lots of hostile neighbors can't really afford not to hold onto this small piece of extremely strategically valuable mountainous terrain. It's definitely a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" kind of situation, far from the only one Israel has faced and is facing. Once again though, this is completely different from Gaza.
Maybe I overlooked something totally obvious (wouldn't be the first time), so I invite you to try and find a state acting similar to how Israel did towards Gaza and this being labeled as occupation. Alternatively, you can just ignore this lengthy diatribe and we go our separate ways without continuing this conversation. It's entirely up to you.