this post was submitted on 25 Aug 2024
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(Cross-posted from: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/26559848/)

Some significant news for Telegram users!

See this article for some interesting backstory context on Pavel Durov and Telegram: https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/the-telegram-billionaire-and-his-dark-empire-a-f27cb79f-86ae-48de-bdbd-8df604d07cc8

Since the post article is in French, here's an auto-translation:

Pavel Durov, the founder and CEO of the encrypted messaging service Telegram, was arrested around 8 p.m. on Saturday evening as he got off his private jet on the tarmac of Le Bourget airport. The 39-year-old Franco-Russian was accompanied by his bodyguard and a woman.

The arrest was carried out by the gendarmes of the GTA (Air Transport Gendarmerie). Registered in the RPF (wanted persons file), Pavel Durov came straight from Azerbaijan. He had over his head a French search warrant issued by the OFMIN of the National Directorate of the French Judicial Police, issued on the basis of a preliminary investigation.

Why was he under threat of a search warrant?

The Justice considers that the lack of moderation, cooperation with the police and the tools offered by Telegram (disposable number, cryptocurrencies, etc.) makes it complicit in drug trafficking, paedophile offences and fraud.

This search warrant ran if, and only if, Pavel Durov was on national territory. "He made a mistake tonight. We don't know why... Was this flight just a step? In any case, he's locked up!" a source close to the investigation told TF1/LCI. Since he knew he was persona non grata in France, Pavel Durov used to travel to the Emirates, the countries of the former USSR, South America... He travelled very little in Europe and avoided countries where Telegram is under surveillance.

And now?

Investigators from the ONAF (National Anti-Fraud Office attached to the Customs Directorate) notified him and placed him in police custody. He is expected to be presented to an investigating judge this Saturday evening before a possible indictment on Sunday for a multitude of offences: terrorism, drugs, complicity, fraud, money laundering, concealment, paedophile content...

"Pavel Durov will end up in pre-trial detention, that's for sure," comments an investigator to TF1/LCI. "On his platform, he allowed an incalculable number of misdemeanours and crimes to be committed for which he does nothing to moderate or cooperate," said a source close to the case.

His pre-trial detention at the end of his indictment is indeed in no doubt. Pavel Durov, a billionaire, has substantial means to flee and his guarantees of representation will hardly convince the judges.

A net with international resonance

For the investigators, this international sweep has various objectives. First, it makes it possible to kick the anthill, impress and deter the perpetrators of crimes and offences who exchange, until now, freely on Telegram. Secondly, they aim to put pressure on European countries to step up joint work to make secure messaging on terrorist cases bend.

Indeed, Telegram is a hive of criminal content. At the moment, the platform is in the news with the illegal broadcasting of Ligue 1 matches. But on this encrypted messaging service, many accounts are used by organized crime. Beyond terrorism, the most dangerous pedophiles communicate on Telegram to exchange content. "It has become for years THE number 1 platform for organized crime," comments an investigator.

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[–] PotatoesFall@discuss.tchncs.de 114 points 2 months ago (3 children)

I don't care much for the guy, but the fact he gets arrested for the service is a bad sign for private messaging in Europe.

[–] sqgl 19 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

I think you and most people in this thread have been mislead by the article because of the closing remark.

Beyond terrorism, the most dangerous pedophiles communicate on Telegram to exchange content.

But it isn't the private stuff he is being prosecuted for though AFAIK (although it might have been reported by "traitors" within those chats).

Unlike Signal, there are public chat groups and channels and I presume these are the ones which got him into trouble for propagating illegal activity.

From another article...

terrorism, narcotic supply, fraud, money laundering, receiving stolen goods and others.... he allowed an incalculable number of offenses and crimes to be committed, which he did nothing to moderate

The platform has faced issues of misinformation and hate speech, especially antisemitic speech following October 7, 2023.

[–] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 10 points 2 months ago (3 children)

So platforms are now liable for everything people post? This seems like a free pass to censorship and authoritarian control.

[–] celia@lemmy.blahaj.zone 8 points 2 months ago

The platforms should be held liable when those groups can easily be accessed by anyone, and moderation would be "simple" as the conversations aren't even encrypted. We aren't asking for more of Telegram than Youtube or Facebook

[–] flerp@lemm.ee 6 points 2 months ago (1 children)

What do you mean 'now'? Even 4chan had to remove illegal things, this isn't new.

[–] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 4 points 2 months ago

In the US platforms are shielded from liability with the exception of CSAM

[–] SplashJackson@lemmy.ca 3 points 2 months ago

Just like how municipal governments are responsible for every crime that occurs in city limits!

Wait a minute

[–] GolfNovemberUniform@lemmy.ml 12 points 2 months ago

I think it's even more of a French thing than an EU thing. France is known for implementing censorship and stuff recently.

[–] Endward23@futurology.today 6 points 2 months ago (1 children)

If you don't care for the guy, you will nearly certainly lose privat messaging in Europe. Maybe, it's even too late by now.

[–] PotatoesFall@discuss.tchncs.de 9 points 2 months ago (2 children)

No. Pavel Durov is a nut and he is not out there saving private communication. Signal is offering the most accessible e2ee messenger right now. Telegram has questionable security on their optional e2ee chats which is also not the default.

But the people trying to save e2ee in europe are activists and politicians. Patrick Breyer has done excellent reporting on the chat control plans of the EU.

Durov is just some dude peddling his mid messenger

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[–] minnix@lemux.minnix.dev 60 points 2 months ago (34 children)

Telegram is good for citizen journalism (like what's going on on the ground in Gaza and Ukraine), funny videos and memes, tech support, and casual conversation. Never privacy though.

[–] istanbullu@lemmy.ml 14 points 2 months ago (2 children)

The fact that governments want to shut down Telegram and arrest its founder shows that Telegram is pretty good for privacy.

[–] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 6 points 2 months ago

I wouldn't go that far

[–] ReversalHatchery 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

And definitely much better than discord, contrary to what some say

[–] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 5 points 2 months ago

I'm pretty sure no one actually says that

[–] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 7 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

What should be alarming is what thus means for other services. Can you get arrested for running a Matrix server in France? It seems like this is very slippery

I personally don't like Telegram as it is centralized, not private and is to close to the Russian government. However, it should be allowed to exist.

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[–] makingStuffForFun@lemmy.ml 41 points 2 months ago (1 children)

This is a global push to destroy systems the government's can't control. He fact he was arrested says everything.

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[–] istanbullu@lemmy.ml 30 points 2 months ago (2 children)

You know you are an authoritarian country when you arrest CEOs of messaging apps.

[–] KLISHDFSDF@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 months ago

But's not just a messaging app. Telegram is a public forum (non-private and unencrypted btw) where they know crimes are being committed and are taking no action to mitigate them.

If you let people commit crimes in your house you are a criminal. If you own a mall and let people commit crimes in it, you are a criminal. If you own a boat and let people commit crimes in it you are a criminal. Same concept here. Pavel Durov created a public forum and not only allows crime to happen, but lies to people telling them its secure and private.

If I were a tinfoil wearing kind of person, I'd think Pavel was in on the whole thing and helping some 3-letter agency because Telegram has been a "privacy" scam from the beginning and it seems criminals are too dumb to realize they fell for playbook similar to Anom, just on a bigger scale.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 months ago

All CEOs should be arrested actually.

[–] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 25 points 2 months ago (1 children)

This is a actually pretty worrying

[–] KLISHDFSDF@lemmy.ml 7 points 2 months ago (2 children)

This is a actually pretty worrying

Why?

Telegram is not an encrypted platform, so they're not going after him for providing end-to-end encrypted services. They're going after him because they have full insight into what's going on in their platform and not taking appropriate action and in some cases completely ignoring it. It's pretty common that if you're providing a public platform that you comply with authorities. Signal doesn't have this problem, they have no insight into anything their user base is doing; you can't be asked to enforce things you can't see.

[–] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 19 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

So you want so start seeing platforms practice mass censorship? That's what's going to happen as they aren't going to take on risk.

What's worse is that spells the end of the fediverse and smaller hosted media. The admins who are bold enough to host a Lemmy or Mastodon instance are eventually going to get taken by authorities. It doesn't matter what country they are in. Admins can't moderate everything and there will always be content that is illegal somewhere.

[–] Daxtron2@startrek.website 6 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Telegram never was and never will be a secure messaging platform. Anyone using it as a such is an idiot.

[–] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 5 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I never said it was

[–] KLISHDFSDF@lemmy.ml 6 points 2 months ago (2 children)

So you want so start seeing platforms practice mass censorship? That’s what’s going to happen as they aren’t going to take on risk.

Platforms are already not taking a risk and practice mass censorship. This is why you have words like "unalive" and "grape" becoming part of the American lexicon. It's not even nefarious. Advertisers don't want their content near negative content so platforms (without being asked by their government) auto-enforce these kind of policies.

What’s worse is that spells the end of the fediverse and smaller hosted media.

Serious doubt. All the fediverse has to do is comply with the law when asked, it really is that simple. Telegram was specifically not complying with the law, which is why illegal content is so easy to find on there, and thus why they were being targeted.

Admins can’t moderate everything and there will always be content that is illegal somewhere.

Frankly, if you can't keep your house in order, you're not taking your responsibility seriously enough. Nobody's forcing lemmy, mastodon, peertube, pixelfed, etc admins to give free accounts to more people than they can manage.

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[–] NecroParagon@lemm.ee 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

I and many tens of thousands of others use it for accurate and timely war updates. Where are we expected to go if Telegram starts censoring everything?

This could be catastrophic for the war effort online.

Edit: I should note that with the exception of illegal things, like child pornography, being made aware of to the owner of the platform they should have to act on that. That's excluded from the ramifications this will have on important matters. Any platform should be made to act IF they are made aware of such activities.

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[–] lemmytellyousomething@lemmy.dbzer0.com 15 points 2 months ago (4 children)

There are open groups on Telegram in which people post that they want to see person XY dead... Everyone who joins the open group can read it anyway.

They decided not to moderate this and not to delete illegal content once reported, although it's easily possible without breaking encryption.

IMO, this has not much to do with privacy.

This is like posting that we should kill someone on Reddit and nothing is happening.

[–] CyberMonkey404@lemmy.ml 11 points 2 months ago

This is like posting that we should kill someone on Reddit and nothing is happening.

Have you been there in early 2022? Tons of "we must exterminate Russians". Or in 2015 or so, go to /Europe, see what they say about migrants. You might wanna lower that high horse of yours

[–] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 11 points 2 months ago

It still isn't a great future to look forward to

Does that mean that French Lemmy admins are now liable for everything that is said by others? That seems like a huge liability and it is impossible for them to catch everything. Also what happens if someone criticizes the French government? Do they have the power to have random comments removed?

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[–] xilliah 14 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

I'd totally be on board with this if the moderation was aimed purely at such cases.

I'm afraid it will be used to oppress minorities and suppress political opinion. Are we going to keep putting people in jail for their political opinions?

[–] GolfNovemberUniform@lemmy.ml 9 points 2 months ago (3 children)

Are we going to keep putting people in jail for their political opinions?

Yes and it will not change because that's how the vast majority thinks now.

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[–] fireshell@lemmy.ml 12 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Durov, as a citizen of France, recently sent them away when they asked for access, and then flew to them to test the strength of democracy. Imbecility and courage.

[–] TWeaK@lemm.ee 10 points 2 months ago (2 children)

He just left Azerbaijan after meeting with Putin. I think he decided he'd be safer in French custody.

[–] fireshell@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

He wanted Uncle Vova to hide him from the bad guys, but he sent him away, there was no meeting. Pasha went to a foreign land.

[–] TWeaK@lemm.ee 4 points 2 months ago

You're right, Putin declined to meet with him.

[–] redrumBot@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)
[–] TWeaK@lemm.ee 4 points 2 months ago

https://turan.az/en/politics/putin-refused-to-meet-with-pavel-durov-in-baku-783760

Apparently he didn't end up meeting with Putin, but that had been the plan.

[–] GolfNovemberUniform@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 months ago

But Telegram does give data to law enforcements afaik. So even that is not enough nowadays? Even more sad to see it right after the election. EU citizens really have to reconsider their voting choices now.

[–] fireshell@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 months ago (5 children)

It's own fault, you shouldn't have taken the citizenship of this stinking pad... You should have taken the citizenship of the Emirates or India or Brazil, for example... Having French citizenship now is a disgrace.

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[–] fireshell@lemmy.ml 3 points 2 months ago

Got carried away with democracy and attempts to feel like someone. So what kind of moron do you have to be to get EU citizenship? Thought he would run away from the democrats and liberals. Well, he's an idiot and that's it.

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