this post was submitted on 09 Jul 2024
58 points (100.0% liked)

Socialism

2850 readers
1 users here now

Beehaw's community for socialists, communists, anarchists, and non-authoritarian leftists (this means anti-capitalists) of all stripes. A place for all leftist and labor news and discussion, as long as you're nice about it.

Non-socialists are welcome to come to learn, though it's hard to get to in-depth discussions if the community is constantly fighting over the basics. We ask that non-socialists please be respectful and try not to turn this into a "left vs right" debate forum by asking leading questions or by trying to draw others into a fight.

This community's icon was made by Aaron Schneider, under the CC-BY-NC-SA 4.0 license.

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
alyaza
OneRedFox
58
Democracy Requires Disempowering the Supreme Court (jacobin.com)
submitted 4 months ago by OneRedFox to c/socialism
20 comments fedilink hide all child comments
top 20 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] FlashMobOfOne 17 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (2 children)

We don't have a true democracy and never have. If we did, Trump and Bush II would never have become president as neither received as many votes as their opponents.

Second, any speculative changes on a macro level require either violence on a revolutionary scale or for 49% of voters to pull the lever for a third party instead of Democrats or Republicans.

I think it's more likely WWIII will disrupt America's politics before we have another revolution, and I know full well that our partisans are too well-programmed to pull the lever for anyone other than Democrats and Republicans, so I don't anticipate any meaningful positive change in the near future.

[–] DemBoSain@midwest.social 5 points 4 months ago (2 children)

I voted 3rd party in 2016, because fuck the 2- party system. I'll do it again once we get ranked-choice voting, but not before.

[–] FlashMobOfOne 4 points 4 months ago (4 children)

Your vote is your right to do with as you please, but this is the thinking that's set us inevitably on the 44-year path to fascism.

[–] LukeZaz 4 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I'd argue the road to fascism started a hell of a lot sooner than 2016. Capitalism in decay, and all that.

[–] FlashMobOfOne 3 points 4 months ago

Agreed.

[–] The_Sasswagon 2 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I don't follow this, how has this person voting 3rd party in 2016 led to facism starting in the 80s? For that matter, how has 3rd party voting led to facism at all? I'm very much struggling to make sense of this.

[–] FlashMobOfOne 5 points 4 months ago

I don't follow this, how has this person voting 3rd party in 2016 led to facism starting in the 80s?

That's not what I'm saying, but I'll clarify.

It's people who vote Red or Blue regardless of the quality of candidate that have set us on the path to fascism, and the fact that they've done so for the last 44 years despite the monumental failures of the ruling parties, culminating in two obviously cognitively impaired candidates in 2024.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] derbis 2 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Do you live in a swing state? Because if you don't, might as well vote third party

[–] elfpie 2 points 4 months ago

I just now realized that your vote means nothing if the majority of the group you're assigned to voted differently, and it means little when with the majority. I'm not from the US and I thought I had understood the modular voting system and the issues with only two great parties, but their combination is horrifying.

[–] millie 2 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I'm not sure that the electoral college precludes qualifying as a democracy. Voter disenfranchisement certainly seems to put a wrench in the idea though.

[–] FlashMobOfOne 4 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Considering its abject failure twice in recent memory, I'd say it is quite evident that it precludes qualifying as a democracy.

But, originally, our founding fathers only intended for rich, landowning men to vote, so the US was never intended to be a democracy anyway.

[–] millie 3 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

Its failure to what, though, exactly? Go by the popular vote?

There are definitely problems with our democracy, but I don't think an electoral college automatically disqualifies it. I'd love to see it gone, because I don't think it's representative, but the argument behind it is one of broader representation rather than narrow representation.

The idea is that life in the population centers of the US and life in rural areas is very different. We've got a fair chunk of our population living in the middle of nowhere, but they're dwarfed by the population of our cities. By dividing votes by state, it keeps the most populous states from constantly determining the course of the less populous states on a federal level.

The alleged intent is to give those less populous states an opportunity to be involved in the discussion of our federal government. As you've probably noticed, laws vary wildly from state to state in the US. Instead of one consensus on law in general, we have 50 mini-consensuses. There are states that literally will refuse to enforce certain federal laws, or that will refuse to honor the laws of other states.

So our presidential electoral process looks very similar. It's not one consensus, it's 50 mini-consensuses. Because the votes happen at the state level, you can win a popular vote and still lose the state-by-state vote. That's not it being broken, that's it functioning as intended.

This model of state and federal government honestly works pretty well for us in a lot of cases. It allows states like Massachusetts, California, or Washington to go ahead and try some new stuff that other states are hesitant about. It's why we've got things like ACA, marriage equality and other protections for queer folks in some states, and it's why marijuana has been legalized in a lot of places. Unfortunately it's also why Texas and Florida are dystopian hellscapes, but it does insulate the people in these more progressive states from a bit of their nonsense.

Unfortunately we also have a lot of gerrymandering and voter disenfranchisement going on that makes the situation worse. But even in a really bad situation, you're going to have states that protect people from some of the worst of it.

It's democracy, it's just not direct democracy at a federal level. It's representative democracy that focuses on an alliance of 50 states rather than running it like one big thing.

If we want to challenge the legitimacy of American democracy, voter disenfranchisement and the ongoing persistence of legal slavery are probably a better place to start.

[–] FlashMobOfOne 1 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Unfortunately we also have a lot of jerrymandering and voter disenfranchisement going on that makes the situation worse.

It is unfortunate. People need to stop using the D word here.

[–] millie 4 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Why would you want people to stop talking about disenfranchisement? States deciding to take the vote away from their citizens after they've been convicted is something we should absolutely be highlighting. You'll even notice there's a significant correlation between which states are consistently redder and which have greater rates of voter disenfranchisement.

Maybe what we need is clarification about what disenfranchisement is, because it's not just people deciding not to vote. It's people having their ability to vote taken away.

[–] ninjaphysics 1 points 4 months ago

Agreed that we need to talk about this more. Say you get a ticket you can't pay because your car broke down or you couldn't miss work at your minimum wage job. You could be doing everything legally right and still have a warrant out for your arrest, get put through the "justice" system, and eventually lose your job, your livelihood, and be set up for recidivism. If you're charged with a felony, or are locked up, you cannot exercise your right to vote. It's so easy to be caught up in a cycle that systematically strips away your rights and ability to provide for yourself and your family.

Disenfranchisement is a broad and complex issue that is caused by policy choices and local/subjective policing of historically overburdened communities, like BIPOC/LGBTQ+/disabled peoples. I'm sure it's also much more involved than I can speak to. And don't get me started on how for-profit and private prisons everywhere essentially use slave labor to make money. With the Supreme Court effectively criminalizing homelessness, you're getting more inmate labor on the way. I believe inmates should have access to education and federal minimum wage jobs so they have incentive to get out and contribute to society, and aren't forced to start their lives over just to make ends meet. Especially for those that were locked up for low level crimes. It doesn't make sense to damn someone to hell for small crimes and never allow them to get back on their feet.

[–] tooLikeTheNope@lemmy.ml 4 points 4 months ago (2 children)

...then you'd need another higher grade more-supreme court... maybe just don't let the members be chosen by obviously biased politicians

[–] t3rmit3 5 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I am in favor of all 9 justices being elected every 4 years, by popular vote.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] BestBouclettes@jlai.lu 4 points 4 months ago

Impeach the whole thing and reform with more seats and impose a term limit.

[–] optissima@possumpat.io 3 points 4 months ago

Mmm yes disembowel the supreme court