correct. i would have no problem if this post and the subsequent comments defending it didn’t use the words “wrong” and “immoral.” but they do and that’s fascist territory.

[–] BluJay320@lemmy.blahaj.zone 9 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Lmao, no it’s not

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[–] Toes@ani.social 59 points 7 months ago (1 children)

But without infinite growth how can we feed the capitalistic engine with more souls?

[–] sexy_peach 15 points 7 months ago (3 children)

People have children because they want to, not for growth. In a relatively stable society most people don't even have many children...

[–] user224@lemmy.sdf.org 12 points 7 months ago

"If I didn't have children, who'd take care of me when I get old?"
"If we didn't have children, who'd work for our pensions and keep society running when we retire?"
"I want to live a happy life after I retire, and you (young people) are obliged to provide that."

Real words I heard.
A lot of people have kids mostly for future-proofing themselves.

[–] Zacryon@lemmy.wtf 10 points 7 months ago

India: "I need many children to support my everyday life and me when I'm old."

Germany: "wtf are children?"

(A bit exaggerated of course, but should illustrate your point.)

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[–] lorty@lemmy.ml 54 points 7 months ago (16 children)

Crazy take: people get to choose if they have children.

[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 10 points 7 months ago

... without being judged for it, I hope?

[–] belated_frog_pants 8 points 7 months ago

I wish they did but the governments are intent on taking that choice away

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[–] nicknonya@lemmy.blahaj.zone 43 points 7 months ago (3 children)

you do understand that the joker is in the wrong here, right? like in this scene he's a mentally i'll man saying that killing people is funny.

if you genuinely believe that existence has an inherent negative value then i strongly suggest you seek help, and i don't mean that to be facetious. antinatalism is depression turned into a moral philosophy, it posits itself as a solution to suffering by offering an unrealizable future, but really it's an excuse to not even attempt to make the world better.

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[–] Objection@lemmy.ml 43 points 7 months ago

Antinatalism is reactionary and incorrect.

[–] sexy_peach 42 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I believed this once, but then I went to therapy. People have thrived under way worse conditions.

[–] androogee@midwest.social 23 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I'm more worried about the reefs thriving

[–] sexy_peach 9 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Me too

[–] KyuubiNoKitsune@lemmy.blahaj.zone 10 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Then not having kids is one of the best things you can do.

[–] sexy_peach 17 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I am not willing to sacrifice having children. It's an integral part of life for me. Killing myself would probably be good for the climate as well.

[–] KyuubiNoKitsune@lemmy.blahaj.zone 7 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Less good than not having children. But we are all free to make our own choices, but I don't think that you can seriously hold both "I care about the environment" and "I'm choosing to bring life into the world and damage the environment" ideas in your head without a lot of hypocrisy.

I know you may think, my one kid won't have such a big impact on the environment, but when 7 billion think that, the problem is exponential.

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[–] 12510198@lemmy.blahaj.zone 38 points 7 months ago (1 children)

What a bunch of cringe edgy antinatalist nonsense. Think about the future, if you don't have kids, who are we gonna feed to the machine a few decades from now?

[–] sexy_peach 8 points 7 months ago

Who feeds the machine now, it's you so why are you even around

[–] SternburgExport@feddit.de 35 points 7 months ago (1 children)

especially when I see what kind of people choose to have kids

[–] Ranger@lemmy.blahaj.zone 32 points 7 months ago (5 children)

Then you're leaving the future to them.

[–] nickwitha_k@lemmy.sdf.org 7 points 7 months ago (1 children)

And the suffering that they cause.

[–] sexy_peach 12 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Such a doomer mindset

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[–] spujb@lemmy.cafe 29 points 7 months ago (2 children)

gross

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[–] Umbrias 28 points 7 months ago (3 children)

As long as you're keeping it to your own life not trying to encourage genocide via antinatalist policy then you do you.

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[–] Junkhead@slrpnk.net 25 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I think most people simply don’t appreciate what having a child is and what a massive responsibility it is. Bringing another human being into this world is a gift, one that you should be expected to nurture and love no matter what.

The problem is that many believe that a child is simply an extension of oneself and can be manipulated and contorted into whatever the parent wants. A child is not you, a child is not a free workforce, or laborer. Too many people who do not truly understand what they are bringing into this world are parents and thats why theres so many flawed individuals.

I think most people shouldnt have children and especially right now with the way the worlds headed but to say having children is completely wrong is immensely stupid.

(in addition i myself am abstaining from having children because i dont want the responsibility and i find the lil shits annoying.)

[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 14 points 7 months ago (5 children)

I think most people simply don’t appreciate what having a child is and what a massive responsibility it is.

I think you're talking out of your own ass, if you believe that most parents don't know all that.

[–] Junkhead@slrpnk.net 15 points 7 months ago (8 children)

mmmmm no id say youre talking out of your own ass.

Many parents when you truly get down to it seem to think the most important part of being a parent is spreading their genes and maintaining a bloodline.

I truly mean it when I say most parents dont realize how profound having a kid truly is. Otherwise i truly believe people take longer before having kid when it comes to finding another person to raise a kid with, considering what mental illnesses, or diseases that lurk in your dna.

I also think abortion wouldnt be that much of an issue if people consider when its truly the right time to raise a child.

So nah suck it brah.

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[–] retrieval4558@mander.xyz 18 points 7 months ago (6 children)

Something that no one has discussed in this highly enlightened conversation here is the issue of consent. A person cannot consent to being born. Full stop. I don't know of a way around that besides ignoring it.

[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 20 points 7 months ago (15 children)

What's consent to a being that doesn't exist?

[–] retrieval4558@mander.xyz 11 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Nothing, unless they start existing.

[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 15 points 7 months ago (5 children)

So, how does the concept make any sense? Can I get consent from an angel, too?

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[–] TheObviousSolution@lemm.ee 17 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

It's only encouraged because if people stop having children, it breaks the system, an utterly shit system which apparently can't be fixed fast enough if people stop having children so we better go full speed ahead on a the most moronically large scale sunk cost calamity that is going to hit us like a brick wall along with all the other things piling up.

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[–] SuspiciousCatThing@pawb.social 16 points 7 months ago (3 children)

I consider myself staunchly antinatalist. Almost nobody I see in the world day-to-day should have children. Hell, working in retail I've come to understand how few people deserve life in general. And then those shitty people have shitty kids.

But I feel like I love as deeply as I hate. When I do meet actually decent people, it makes me feel very happy. It's just not often enough.

[–] AVincentInSpace@pawb.social 37 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (2 children)

I’ve come to understand how few people deserve life in general

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[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 19 points 7 months ago

That's an output of the system, cat thing. Systems can be changed.

[–] sexy_peach 8 points 7 months ago

Hell, working in retail I’ve come to understand how few people deserve life in general.

How full of yourself you are.

[–] kibiz0r@midwest.social 14 points 7 months ago

I was a mild antinatalist for a while. Personally wanted kids, but felt the world was too broken to pass to a new generation that didn't ask for it.

And then -- I know this sounds dumb, but whatever -- I played Horizon: Zero Dawn.

Parenthood in a time of armageddon is a central theme, and it's not subtle about it. Every story element is named in a way that alludes to either parenthood or annihilation. The overarching plot describes the moral challenges of...

spoiler

...planning a next generation of humans to rise from the ashes, thousands of years after the previous generation went extinct. They died to an AI catastrophe, but it works just as well as an allegory for climate change.

Is it ethical to even subject a new generation to this, knowing what we know about how we fucked things up? If we're gonna try, do we have a duty to put in a kill switch in case things go off the rails again?

Obviously, the game sides firmly with the new humans, but it doesn't dismiss these questions out-of-hand, and it's okay with ambiguity and hypocrisy even on the part of Project Zero Dawn's chief architect.

The ending scene still gets me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFJ_vSCJdO0

[–] Cassa@lemmy.blahaj.zone 7 points 7 months ago (4 children)

I'm not a fan of utalitarianism myelf, so this might be wrong; this sounds like utalitarianism - as the action you did cause other suffering.

then in your moral philosophy, are all actions that cause suffering (and joy, and all other feelings a human can experience) morally wrong?

Is then not dating, f.ex Morally wrong?

Or is it the impossibility of consent? Yes, a child is unable to consent to being born. Just as we are all unable to consent to the world being created, or nature's whims. I cannot consent to a state on the other side of the world making policies, but I can still react and do things about it.

Is it morally wrong to let animals have children?

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