Because the little shits (affectionate) don't want to put them down when appropriate
this post was submitted on 07 Jul 2024
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Am I the crazy one? Millennial myself. We had cell phones and got detentions for using them in class. When did that stop being a thing? Why is this a question at all??
You're there to learn. You sneak texts between periods. If we were caught our phone was given to the principal
In the 2000s and early 2010s, less of your life was lived on a cell phone or smartphone.
For kids now, it’s 100% of their lives. Post-COVID, the majority of social interaction between peers is through a social media app.
That means that close to 100% of kids are on their phones during the school day. If you aren’t, you run the risk of social isolation and FOMO.
Administrators can’t send a kid to detention for using their phone because ALL kids would be in detention every day.
Here’s one article that examines the problem
As long as the phone isn't used in class I fail to the the issue. There's no need to ban phone use in general while on school premises.
Read the article, the problem is that kids don't care and don't listen. Teachers asking kids to take their airpods out during class, and receiving harassment back when asking. To me the kids proved they couldn't handle it (not their fault, it's an addiction device), but the school had to step in or it wasn't doing its job
And the kids that are this brazenly disrespectful and disruptive would be disrespectful and disruptive without phones too. Most kids aren't though, no matter how much alarmist media wants them to be. It's a good old fashioned moral panic. Punish the actual wrongdoers, leave the test of the kids alone.
I don't think wanting kids to pay attention in school is alarmist panic, to me your comment is more inflammatory than the post. Whether they should do it for just classes or not, or if they should take a punishment first approach can be debated, but out of all media and journalism, this is not alarmist.
And most kids already do. People have been complaining about "kids today" for literally thousands of years. Probably longer, we just don't have records of it. There have always been troublemakers, and there always will be. People have been blaming everything from literature to TV to music to video games to, nowadays, phones. This, too, will blow over, and it'll be fine.
People have also been making choice and being actively involved in raising kids for thousands of years. Imposing rules on kids is part of normal human life.
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Schools are literally mini-prisons that feed into actual prison.
The important thing is not reasonable control but complete control.
There's a fine line between being allowed to have your phone in school and mitigating its usage. I don't entirely disagree with you, but I do think you're being a bit too... Strong, about your stance.
When I was in middle school, phones were banned through and through. Weren't allowed to be on, weren't allowed out, etc. One day I think at lunch period, I was digging through my backpack while walking and the phone flew out of the bag. It was confiscated by the jerk volunteer and given to the principal, and I had to get it with my parents after school. It's was embarrassing and I knew it was wrong because I had done nothing wrong. This fits to your point.
Everyone involved with a rational mind knew it was bullshit. However, this was also the same school that had major issues with gang violence. We had a (pretty reasonable) dress code policy that involved no local gang colors - no red, no blue, no purple. Phone were banned because there had been a driveby shooting that was called in by a gang affiliated student who got into an argument. From their perspective, they wanted to take no chances from insane 11-13 year olds who were already smoking weed and active in gangs.
I grew up in the ghetto where school is the only opportunity for people to get out of a terrible situation. My high schools graduating class was the first to have reached over 74% graduation rate in over a decade. This school (literally nicknamed Jail For Kids), had actual students with probation officers. We had multiple lockdowns monthly, almost all of which were due to people with weapons and police activity nearby.
The point I'm getting at is that, to an extent, schools absolutely mold and shape the status quo. However, it's completely wrong to make the assumption that all schools feed into the prison industrial complex. In my area, school was the one chance a kid who grew up slinging had to get out, and for many in my class it was.
I agree with you that schools have a number of issues, but from what I've read here today I don't entirely agree about your stance, from having grown up in and worked with schools like this as an adult. And to get back on topic, students not being allowed to use their phones during class is not a bad thing. During lunchtime, I agree a ban is too much, however I can also understand wanting to keep students socialized with each other. That 30 minutes during lunch doesn't need to be spent on your phone, when you have the rest of your day at home to do so.
After Covid, in my area, this dynamic changed entirely. By the time I came back from college and started working, kids weren't involved in that anymore. Middle school was completely normal, kids weren't affiliated with gangs, had no idea what weed was, let alone the other stuff. But the one thing they all had in common was the debilitating addiction to their phone. You can't go 5 minutes without seeing a child smashing their finger on the screen, in classes, during lunch, after school, on the bus. Just walking around with their eyes glued to their phone.
And I get it, I've been a screen kid too. I've always loved tech and games, still spend way too much time on it. But as a kid we had more options, our entire lives weren't spent engaging through the phone, whereas now that is how you have to engage with others. When we had playtime growing up, only a portion of it was spent on the PlayStation and a majority of the rest was imagination and exploring. Then when we were done, I'd explore the Internet on a laptop with Neopets, Gamefaqs, or Gaia Online.
To me, it seems that the intent is pretty obvious. Students have had a really difficult time being properly engaged in school due to how poor quality the level of schooling had become from the changes after 2016 that were made from the Secretary of Education, then further floundered through Covid. When schools came back into session, the level of dependency to phones has grown exponentially, and these students abilities to go without have been shortened drastically.
If the one common trend among all these students is that poor support during a critical period of education led to the overabundance of cell phone dependence, doesn't it make sense to consider banning it, to at least try and see if it results in a positive change?
From what I've read from you, it seems like the answer would be no, because it's taking away the freedom. Which, sure. But shouldn't we also make as many efforts as possible to prepare our students? If the options are 1) teach people or 2) let them ignore it and spend all their time doing nothing, wouldn't we choose to avoid option 2?
The way I have experienced it, we need to allow for healthy technological exploration while encouraging the focus on school studies. Right now, I'm honestly more on the side FOR banning phones from schools because I've seen firsthand the way students use them. When I was in highschool, it was common for people to put in headphones and ignore the teacher, and it was common for the teacher to put them on blast for it. When I go to do my job at the schools, it is a majority of the students using headphones or their phone during class to ignore the teacher. The teachers can't do anything about it, the parents don't care, and so what options are left? We just let our youth grow up going to school for 12 years ignoring every part of it?
That's a recipe for disaster. We're already seeing the effects of this with Gen Z entering the workplace (and I don't mean your standard retail or 9-5, I work in performing arts) and while many have been beyond amazing, there are a few who clearly are struggling. I worry this will be the case as more younger generations begin trying to navigate their career choices. As I said at the beginning, there is a clear line between trying to motivate the usage of phones in spaces where their presence isn't needed, and outright controlling people. In my opinion, mitigating cell phone usage in students isn't an attempt at control. It's an attempt at giving students a chance to thrive.
Btw: I definitely think we should adjust curriculums to allow for more engaging education. For some odd reason, the usage of cell phones in certain classes is way, way down. For example, yearbook, art, music, and digitally related classes (hardware/software) almost none of the students pull out their phone during class. Almost as if having students engaged in something they are interested in is a way to mitigate them using their phones to entertain themselves. I can't imagine why. (/////S)
Instead we are seeing further funding cuts to these programs, so that's great...
Tl;Dr I don't disagree, but I also do.
Gamefaqs and Gaia, you're taking me back. :)
One thing that leans me towards technocrit's more absolutist stance on schools is how different they are now compared to when I was in high school (2003-2007):
Schools have become much more prison-like since then. My partner is a high school teacher, and all the stuff I remember being important parts of socializing like recess, gym, free periods, clubs, band, theater, etc, have been absolutely slashed.
There are schools now that are trying to enforce "no talking in the hallway" rules in place.
My partner is on teacher conversation boards where other teachers are lamenting that kids talk to each other too much, but they're locked inside with each other for 8 hours against their will! People are treating kids like school is their job, but it's completely uncompensated from the kids' view.
Is school an important tool for social mobility? Yeah, absolutely, and I don't think either I or technocrit would advocate abolishing schools, but they need to be heavily reformed in terms of what they actually offer the students before I'm comfortable discussing the next thing that schools want to strip away from them.
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It makes sense, I really like what this principal did, and he was fully aware that kids were addicted and were going to go through a withdrawal period. I think the pouches are a good thing, they may have gotten addicted during covid, but now is the time to end that and make sure the next wave of kids don't suffer the same. I really liked the results:
Gabe Silver, another eighth-grader, echoed that sentiment. When the pouches first arrived, “everyone was miserable and no one was talking to each other,” he said. Now he can hear the difference at lunch and in the hallways. It’s louder. Students are chatting more “face to face, in person,” Gabe said. “And that’s a crucial part of growing up.”
Some students hadn’t realized how much their phones diverted their focus. Nicole Gwiazdowski, 14, followed the earlier rule not to use her cellphone in class. But even in her pocket, it was still a distraction. Her phone would buzz five to 10 times a day with notifications, she said, prompting her to take it out and check it.
Everyone is paying more attention in class these days, she said. And it turns out that being separated from your phone for the day isn’t as big a deal as some students feared.
“People thought, ‘Oh my God, I’m going to miss so much,’” Nicole said. “You don’t miss anything. Nothing important is happening outside school.”
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Based on my interactions with teachers, the administrative class that runs these schools are cowards who don't want to deal with angry parents, nor the liability if the phones get confiscated and then stolen/damaged. There's also a lot of parents who want to text their kids during the school day and get mad when they can't. A lot of teachers have given up since the higher ups won't back them up. This happened around 2015 or so, when smartphones became ubiquitous.
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I'm an early gen Y. I knew maybe 4 people who had a cell phone, and only one of them could record a 30 second, shitty quality video. Kinda glad phones weren't in constant use when I was in school.
The lack of etiquette is really frustrating. Had a tech student that was always putting in both earbuds as I was speaking. Had to walk over and wave my hand in front of the screen to get their attention.
When they graduated they said they were excited to get a job in the industry. Internally can't help but think "with what knowledge or experience? You spent the entire class blocking it out."
“Excuse me child, can you please not hit that crack pipe while class is in session?”
This is not on the kids at all. Kids need to be protected by adults including from themselves.
It’s our job to limit their free access to addictive stuff. Once they’re adults, addiction management becomes their own problem. But these phones are like crack.
Ah yes... Affectionate condescension and authoritarianism. The best kind.
The same way that I'd call my cat a little shit if she was being a brat for the fun of it like she does sometimes
I usually let my students keep their devices, but I had one student… I had asked everyone to write 5 sentences about a made up place. The kid was on his phone, showing things to his classmates while assuring me he was doing his work. Everyone finished but him, with nothing. I let every other student share their answers first to buy him time, then when it was his turn, nothing. I took away his phone and he had it done in less than a minute.
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It's disappointing but not surprising to see so many people (on lemmy) willing to violently control children and their access to tech, information, etc.
- https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2023/05/kids-online-safety-act-still-huge-danger-our-rights-online
- https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2024/03/thousands-young-people-told-us-why-kids-online-safety-act-will-be-harmful-minors
- https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2022/12/schools-and-edtech-need-study-student-privacy-year-review-2022
It's pretty telling when people don't want to do anything about the many other much bigger causes of psychological harm. Where's the law that stops cops from harassing minority youth? Yeah right.
Peeps are literally upvoting Ron DeSantis. Fascism is not the goal here. Wake up, y'all.
Come off it, not being allowed to be on your cell phone during school hours isn’t the same as KOSA.
The APA document you linked even specifically discusses the effects of social media (what do you think they’re using their phones for?) on mental health.
Christ almighty, that was dramatic.
Not being able to use your cell phone for the duration of the school day is fascism.
Fascinating.
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You don’t have kids huh?
I have a kid, I spent 10 years working with kids professionally, and I agree with this dude.
In fact, lots of people, myself included, are drawn to leftist anarchism BECAUSE of lessons we learned about the failures of authoritarianism in school from parents and teachers. It's always super annoying to see parents and teachers settling comfortably into an authoritarian role with their own kids, after hearing them wax emphatically about the effects of authoritarianism in adult society. I'm surrounded by hypocrites, and it's not harmless. It's like everybody either forget what it's like to be kids, or think that the lessons of adulthood give them license to stop caring about those "little" problems, (and be fricken condescending in the process) when actually they just find it "easier" or it "feels safer" to them.
I have friends who we're excellent teachers, but left the school system in absolute despair because they went in intending to be collaborative, entertaining teachers and passionate advocates for the kids in their care... Only to run up against all the bureaucratic walls the education system throws up to prevent exactly that and create as much conformity as possible... And then the icing on the cake is the vast majority of parents who just don't get it, Don't even try to get it, Don't listen, know what they know, their opinions are their opinions and talking to them is just effing hopeless.
Whenever I've dealt with really difficult children, 9 times out of 10 you meet the parents and you're like "Oh, this all makes sense!" (I can actually only think of three exceptions and two of those were clinical sociopaths). Or you go to work with a school (I've worked with and at dozens of schools) and you're like "Oh, I understand why the kids from this school that I see in my program are always behaving in X, Y and Z dysfunctional ways. How is everyone this clueless and incompetent??" I have watched teachers utterly fail to teach or connect with the kids in their charge, and then watched those same teachers play politics and keep their positions while teachers who are doing a great job get let go (or forced out through social bs) because they want to ignore all that crap. I have had teachers come up to me when I'm running a program or event at their school and had them say "Oh my god, I'm so sorry, I saw the kids in your program and those are all the most difficult children we have!" And I'm like "these kids are fine! You're an authoritarian in an authoritarian environment, aren't you??"
And I'm literally surrounded by adults who like think they know what they're doing, and aren't even trying to get it and MAN do they have opinions they want to share and it pisses me the fuck off.
My kid creates super good boundaries, he emphasizes kindness in communication in ways I was totally unable to do it his age, he advocates for himself (and other kids) like someone a decade older, and if he's on his phone in class, it's because the teacher is failing to engage the class. End of discussion. When I see that situation, I'm almost always like "I could teach this class and these kids would not be on their phones, and I have the experience under my belt to prove it." (And I have seen shit like that).
Respect. You and yours are the educators that treat kids as people and not cattle to be controlled. Mind bending how revolutionary that act is. Thank you
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Just to counterbalance some of the disagreement replies you've got - I agree with you, it's scary how many people are happy to be ageist, even when they're so progressive on other forms of equality. If you can control people based on how long they've been alive, that's very dangerous in several ways, both to the people who's autonomy is being stolen, and to others who it sets a precedent for.
Anecdotally, yes it does improve attention in class. I have friends who are teachers here in Australia and they are all massively in favour of the bans after a year of them being in place. The problem with the scoping review quoted in the article is that it conflates several different issues and suggests phone bans in schools are supposed to be a silver bullet for all of them. You are never going to solve the mental health and bullying problems with a phone ban that only lasts half of the day, five days a week. Those problems require much broader policy and greater responsibility from parents. Another problem is that research into the effect of smartphones on schooling (which does actually suggest improvements) generally focuses on test or exam results, which are not a reliable indicator of whether students are actually learning or gaining anything from the experience of school.
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I agree with the conclusion of the article:
“School’s the same for 120 years, where kids go nine to three, have long holidays, sit at desks and have to regurgitate what the adults tell them to learn, basically all over the world. We’re blaming kids for falling academic standards, we’re blaming the rise in mental ill health, we’re blaming the rise of cyberbullying. Oh, well, it all must be the fault of the mobile phone,” Marilyn Campbell told Al Jazeera.
“I mean, what a simplistic view of how we are educating our children in a different world and taking away that main tool that we’re all using in society and saying, ‘No, the kids can’t have it now’.”
A balanced approach, involving regulated use and clear guidelines, may be the most effective way to harness the benefits of smartphones while minimising their drawbacks, experts say.
The general recommendation of Campbell and Edwards, who carried out the scoping review in Australia, was to leave it to individual schools to determine smartphone use and to focus on helping children to use smartphones positively.
As an educator and parent, I couldn't disagree more strongly. Smart phones are addiction machines and childhood experience blockers. Children should not have smart phones at all until age 16. Age 16 would be a very appropriate time to introduce smart phones after their harms have been explained in detail at ages 12 through 15.
Banning cell phones during instructional time doesn't go far enough. Students having a smart phone in their pocket is damaging. (Dumb phones are fine—SMS texting and phone calls are great.)
There has been a precipitous decline in youth mental health globally in nations where cell phones were affordable starting in 2010. The evidence is clear. Smart phones (and, more broadly, addictive dark patterns in all apps/games) are a big problem.
If you want to learn more, read the first chapter of The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt. (I'd recommend the full book if you want details, but chapter 1 is enough to give you a grounding in the data and the broad strokes of the argument.)
Out of curiosity, (given that in another comment you talked about home schooling) when you call yourself an educator, do you have a teaching certificate in your state, or other professional teaching certification?
I'm not trying to be rude, but since you began by invoking the title of "educator" as an appeal to authority in this area, I think it's important to clarify that you are in fact such.
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I am in full agreement that cell phones should not be out of the backpack or pocket unless there is an emergency or it’s lunch time / outside of class.
But for the love of critical thinking, also please ban the teachers from using ChatGPT to create their tests for them. I was appalled at finding out teachers at my kid’s school are doing that. While I support any tool (and funding!) that can make the lives and jobs of teachers easier, using a tool like ChatGPT is as irresponsible as telling kids to just Google it. And teachers/administrators should damn well know better.
Cool, so pay teachers more and give them ample time and resources to not need to cut corners.
Also using ChatGPT is fine, not checking the results after is not.
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Who is still going into teaching?
The pay is utter shite and you are dealing with other people's children most of whom didn't get much parenting.
Then these "parents" spend all a lot energy harassing teachers about their crotch fruit poor behavior and or performance.
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Because people are out of touch, saved you an article
Well I don't think that is the case. Parents and teachers are observing students not paying attention.
I would think if an educator can teach a full lesson, while also ensuring that students retain the information, when the student is watching YouTube, endlessly scrolling reddit or lemmy, or on Instagram this wouldn't be an issue.
The problem is that students aren't retaining the knowledge being provided to them.
Here's the thing, in general. Phone or no phone, the problem your mentioned is down to the teacher. I've had good teachers that are able to make a lesson entertaining and guess what. That actually works, people aren't bored to death and shit gets done.
To contrast, boring lessons, even without factoring in phones, nobody gives a shit for good reason. We just focus on something else, wetger that's a phone or something else isn't a factor. Its rather the lesson itself
To address the retaining info part. If somebody talked to you for about half an hour on some random thing you don't care about. How much do you think you would remember or focus on. Spoiler alert, probably not much
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I'm currently rebuilding my math foundation and part of that process was tracking down high quality educational resources with passionate instructors, rigor, and entertainment factor (because I want stuff to recommend to parents). I did eventually find something that was better than what I got in grade school, but I have to say that the Pythagorean Theorem just isn't going to be as interesting as social media feeds and entertainment products custom tailored to my preferences. No teacher is realistically going to be able to compete with the multi-billion dollar entertainment industry for attention and tech companies are abusing psychology research to make their shit as addictive as possible. It's not the biggest problem with the US educational system, but it is one of many, so I'm down with restricting smartphone access at schools.
Just say you hate neurodivergent kids already....
I don't see the connection between neurodivergence and phones
People would film me being acoustic and use the footage to bully me 🥰
A lot of research actually shows that neurodivergent kids rely on online spaces and communities, especially for companionship and social interaction. Forcing a lot of neurodivergent kids to sit in a chair for 8 hours and stare at a whiteboard never worked, but everyone used to just not care. They just sat there suffering, got sent to ISS and ignored, or got kicked out and sent to juvie.
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Another comment already said everything I was going to say in a far more eloquent manner, so refer to @t3rmit3@beehaw.org 's comment below :P
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Got several kids at regular public schools (not in US) and their policy never allowed phones during school hours from the start. It is pragmatic and doesn't cause any drama. The kids get messages home if needed and can collect phones when they leave. It is a relatively normal society where kids walk and ride to school by themselves and parents aren't obsessed with stalking kids or bubble wrapping them.
Schools have a duty of care and sadly are as much baby sitters for working parents as they are places of learning and phones create more problems than they introduce opportunities.
I'm not sure why I see people treating banning smartphones in class like child abuse or something. The only explanation I have is that it's a cultural thing. Obviously, if used appropriately, a smartphone is a valuable tool, but this is only if they are used appropriately, which some students will do and some won't (and this varies as well from school to school and class to class). Where I went to school, a significant number of students did not use them appropriately during class, so not allowing them made sense since they distracted from the lesson.
So, why do I have so little confidence that they'll be used properly? Some people are posting anecdotes about their time as teachers in this thread, so I'll post one from the student's perspective. Despite smartphones not being allowed in my classes in high school, people used them anyway. Why? The teachers wouldn't notice, or some might just not say anything. I played the heck out of one mobile game with my friends in both of my history classes, and nothing ever happened. I knew people who'd be listening to music during class too, and completely ignore the lecture itself. Almost everyone with a phone out used it as a distraction from class, not as a tool to help them learn. Despite there being a rule against them, I'd estimate more than half of the people I went to school with used them during class anyway.
So why didn't the teachers enforce it more strictly? My guess is because it wasn't safe. Many of my friends carried knives at school for self defense. There were a lot of violent students, ranging from fights in the hallway to students being part of a gang. To be clear, this wasn't by any means the majority of the student body, but it wasn't an insignificant portion of it either.
The violence escalated dramatically after the 2016 election, where students (who were understandably upset about the result) got up and threatened all the white people in the school. I had graduated by then, but I knew people who had to barricade themselves in a room with a mob of angry knife-wielding students on the other side of the door. Many of the students in the room weren't even old enough to vote. One teacher left the school because of all the threats she'd received.
Also, not sure how common it is to have a "senior prank day" at other schools, but we had one every year. The "pranks" ranged from spray painting threats to teachers on the outside of the gym, to destroying school property. Once they had to put classes on pause while a company came out to replace the locks on all the doors since the "prank" was to destroy the locks so the doors couldn't be opened.
This school was pretty tame too, compared to some of the schools I'd heard stories of. One teacher I talked to at a different school had stories about all the times some student threatened her or pulled a gun out on her or whatever, and it honestly just sounded like hell.
Anyway, I wouldn't say I blame the kids for this behavior, and while I have strong opinions against feed-driven social media, I don't think it was a major contributor to these behaviors (this was before social media was as big as it is now). I think it really comes down to parenting, whether the parents are just bad at raising kids, or they don't have time or resources to properly raise their kids, or their kids have needs they don't know how to (or refuse to) satisfy. Regardless, a teacher can only do so much, so rather than trying to correct behaviors in students at the risk of their own lives, I think a lot of them just put up with it for the sake of the students who do want to learn.
So if the rule is going to be broken anyway, why have a rule against smartphones? It sets the expectation of students regarding smartphone usage, and gives teachers an opportunity to enforce that rule when they feel it's appropriate (and safe) to do so.
Edit: I should also add that I don't think most schools are this violent. This school was exceptionally bad, but it wasn't as uncommon as you might think to have a school this violent.
In general; I don't think banning them will help. By all means; confiscate phones which do not get put away during class and return them after class. Give teachers and administrators the authority to do this.
Offer appropriate places to securely store and charge phones in each classroom until the teacher releases them. These places remain "locked" or "inaccessible" until class is over.
Do this from a young age and teach the children how to have moderation through this method.
I do not believe children should be deprived of their devices before and after school. If a student is found to be bullying other kids or students online; then charges can be filed in a school-based court and a Judge can consider ordering the bullying kids to have limited or no access to any smart device unsupervised. This puts the burden on the parents to manage any kids who are misusing the tech outside of school. Similarly the troublemakers can be transferred to other schools.
Students who are being bullied online can simply report this to the teachers or admins and get relief from their tormentors. If they can't also learn how to get the adults involved in actually troublesome situations; that's also a problem that needs addressing.
I would encourage students to be open with their parents and teachers about things and definitely also focus on things like social media literacy and how to navigate through tricky situations as well.
Various apps and software tools could be used to manage a student's phone (During school hours) as well; if and only if needed. They could make this mandatory; but it would only be restrictive on phones of students who misuse their phones; and thus are identified as needing 'management'. This would ideally only enforce appropriate usage times and optionally; iff the student is being penalized for bullying or misusing; provide a way to disable various apps and browsers while preventing new ones from being installed without parent or teacher consent.
TL;DR: If the kid follows the rules; their phone isn't going to be locked down. If they don't; they get the lock-down experience while the adults ensure the kid is educated as needed.
Even if that sounds dystopian; it's also a way to integrate phones into the school experience which addresses all the issues...and ensures the adults in charge of the students has ample opportunity to educate the kids about how to use their phones correctly...and intervene with a student's usage if needed while still allowing them to have phones for emergency and necessary use.
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