this post was submitted on 08 May 2024
405 points (100.0% liked)

Science Memes

235 readers
7 users here now

Welcome to c/science_memes @ Mander.xyz!

A place for majestic STEMLORD peacocking, as well as memes about the realities of working in a lab.



Rules

  1. Don't throw mud. Behave like an intellectual and remember the human.
  2. Keep it rooted (on topic).
  3. No spam.
  4. Infographics welcome, get schooled.

This is a science community. We use the Dawkins definition of meme.



Research Committee

Other Mander Communities

Science and Research

Biology and Life Sciences

Physical Sciences

Humanities and Social Sciences

Practical and Applied Sciences

Memes

Miscellaneous

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
 
top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] BubbleMonkey@slrpnk.net 95 points 8 months ago (7 children)

You know I love the idea of cryostasis, and the idea of reanimating people after death is great.

But why the fuck would future humans bother bringing all these people back, even if they could? Even if they have a utopian society free of scarcity and inequality, they would be bringing back mostly rich people who lived in a super different and bad time and have literally nothing positive to contribute to the utopian future, since they were a large part of the problems of today in the first place. Plus the vast majority of them are almost certainly elitist assholes who nobody in a utopia would want to be around.

Maybe it would be a humanitarian thing, but if these people are dead and frozen there’s no real imperative to do this to end suffering or something. Or I guess maybe bringing them back to try and figure out what the hell their damage is that they felt ruining everything was a better option than working toward the betterment of all.. but they’d only need a few brains in vats for that, no bodies, so sucks to suck, cryofolks.

If future humans don’t have a utopian society, the only real use for people from so long ago that I can come up with would be research subjects or slaves. And frankly there are easier ways to go about getting those..

So I see no possible future where people who cryopreserve get brought back en masse. Even if it’s entirely possible to surmount the technical hurdles.

[–] clara@feddit.uk 46 points 8 months ago

why would future humans bother bringing all these people back

i think it's worth reminding why doctors treat people now, in this time and space. they do it mostly because they want to save people. maybe a few do it for money, but past a certain point, the money isn't why you do it. i think it's a safe bet that doctors of a future would see these corpses as patients, and act accordingly. an analogy - think how we see heart attack victims as patients, and not how our medieval ancestors would have seen them (as corpses)

...literally nothing positive to contribute to the utopian future...

true, but, a good chunk of patients in hopsital today have nothing to contribute to society, and cannot contribute any more, whatsoever. we treat them anyway, because that's what we do. humans have consistently cared for others that are sick and have "nothing to contribute" throughout history, and that shows no sign of going away anytime soon

[–] Texas_Hangover@lemm.ee 14 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Lmao, remember that revived 80's douchbag business man on star trek TNG?

[–] Xephonian@retrolemmy.com 5 points 8 months ago

My only regret is that I have boneitis.

[–] dutchkimble@lemy.lol 12 points 8 months ago (1 children)

I think they're frozen before they're dead, so the reason to bring them back would be to not do that murder thing, and also to fulfill contractual obligations, and as a business showcase to the world that you're ready to receive more customers for a freeze and bring you back service instead of a freeze and kill you service.

[–] BubbleMonkey@slrpnk.net 16 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Admittedly I don’t know much about cryopreservation (looked into it many years ago as a curiosity) but my understanding, and the article says the same, is that they clinically die first and then it’s a rush to preserve them before too much breakdown happens. Since it’s quite expensive, most people only preserve their brain or head, which is removed before being frozen. I’m not sure legally they would be able to do this pre-death, since the harvesting/preserving would directly cause death as we currently understand and classify it, and assisted euthanasia of any flavor is illegal in most places.

[–] glouriousgouda@lemmy.myserv.one 7 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

Don't worry the people performing the preservation don't know much about it either.

[–] BubbleMonkey@slrpnk.net 3 points 8 months ago

That’s true.

[–] interdimensionalmeme@lemmy.ml 12 points 8 months ago

That's because you're thinking in term of a society that views most people as a burdensome and undesirable liability. Something we wish we could get rid of faster if possible. It might be tgat in the future, human minds aren't as poisoned by clubofrome population omb neoliberal billionaire thinking.

[–] dev_null@lemmy.ml 10 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

But why the fuck would future humans bother bringing all these people back, even if they could?

There are many valid issues to raise with this bring unlikely to work, but this point seems silly. Why would a road maintenance worker fix a pothole, he's not from around and will never benefit from it? Because it's his job he's paid to do, and he's not having a philosophical discussion about it. Whatever future lab technician will be just going to work in the morning as well, paid by their company, funded by the money the preserved people paid. There isn't much to it.

But it's interesting you said that future humans would kill these people because the preserved people are useless assholes. I'm not that sure you labeled the assholes right in your scenario. Your future humans seem ageist and elitist, thinking only they deserve to live.

There is at least one example I remember from the news of a 20-something girl with cancer being preserved, paid for by pooling money from the family and donations. Unlikely to work but she would have died anyway. So what did she do wrong that she doesn't deserve to be woken up, in your future where the technology is there?

[–] SkyNTP@lemmy.ml 5 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (2 children)

A financial, legal, or even just a tit-for-tat incentive is realistically all it would take. You assume that some utopia that has shed those ideas is the only one capable of such technology.

In reality, it's greed and self-preservation that is running this show, and this is all that is needed to produce awe-inspiring feats.

[–] reverendsteveii@lemm.ee 5 points 8 months ago

okay but how do you establish any of those incentives with people who simply don't exist? eventually the agreements fall apart as all parties involved are either dead or cryostatic, and the agreements will have to compel someone who was never party to them to take some sort of action. Like, I guess you could put a reward in trust but even then you'd need some sort of legal entity to manage and distribute it that would, itself, need an incentive in trust in order to continue, and so on in an infinite regression.

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] bjoern_tantau@swg-empire.de 54 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Is that what Walt Gisnep is right now?

[–] magic_lobster_party@kbin.run 46 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Disney will soon announce the new movie Soup in an attempt to take over the top search results of “Disney Soup”.

[–] Norgur@fedia.io 33 points 8 months ago (2 children)

So that's why it's called Frozen!

[–] mp3@lemmy.ca 32 points 8 months ago
[–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 9 points 8 months ago

To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised

[–] Zoop 36 points 8 months ago (2 children)

Here's a link to the article in the screenshot, in case anyone else was interested in reading it like I was: https://www.freethink.com/futurology/cryogenically-frozen-humans

[–] 01189998819991197253@infosec.pub 18 points 8 months ago (3 children)

Thanks for this. Quite gruesome, but not at all unexpected. I remember having a conversation with a friend of mine a while back, where I made the argument that water expands when frozen and, since humans are mostly water, freezing a human would crack every vital organ. I'm actually upset to discover I was right.

[–] dev_null@lemmy.ml 15 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

This is true, which is why preservation does not involve freezing, except for the bad attempts in the 70s the article talks about, which could never work. The bodies are vitrified, not frozen.

Which still doesn't mean it will work, the technology to revive them doesn't exist, but it doesn't have any freezing issue.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] TheHooligan95@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (2 children)

there could be a way maybe, by freezing water while keeping it extremely pressurized (extremely), you can make "efficient ice" that occupies less space, called ice VII, I'm not kidding. It would cost literally billions of dollars so not yet feasible, but it keeps my sci-fi loving mind at ease.

[–] Natanael@slrpnk.net 5 points 8 months ago

Flash freezing can work, but it's almost impossible for something as large as a human body.

[–] IrritableOcelot 4 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Cryoprotectants also do this pretty efficiently -- they prevent crystallization, which leads to "vitreous" ice, which has more or less the same structure as liquid water and so doesn't expand much. I think they do use that when freezing people, but the problem is that even if you fill the blood vessels with pure ethylene glycol, it diffuses very slowly, and it takes hours to get into cells which are far from large blood vessels. They dont diffuse the cryoprotectant in that thoroughly, though, because that'd take so long the body would have started to decay too much.

Edit: oops, the article talks about vitrifying agents. They make it sound like they're not effective, but as I said above, they're very effective if you can get them in every nook and cranny of every cell, which is a losing battle.

[–] interdimensionalmeme@lemmy.ml 4 points 8 months ago (10 children)

It's fine, as long as the temperature stays stable and no further damage is done. We're not going to revive their flesh. Instead we're going to chop them off in large chunks. Suspend them in a kind of agar. Then laser off 2nanometer at a time. Scan the surface with 1nm resolution PiFM or better method. That's going to yield many terabytes of image data that you can turms into a neural map of the entire nervous system. Even mapping this data to today's LLM would get something roughly able to speak like the corpse. The better this data processing gets the more real the resurrected sentiences will be.

[–] wahming@monyet.cc 6 points 8 months ago

That's assuming the freezing process hasn't irreparably damaged the brain structure, which I don't think anybody can confidently assert at the moment.

load more comments (9 replies)
[–] dumbass@leminal.space 34 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Reminds me of the time when I was younger, scrolling rotten.com and came across that picture of the dude who died in the bath, but had this thing that kept the water warm, so he just turned into a giant human stew.

[–] androogee@midwest.social 12 points 8 months ago (4 children)

What do you call a guy with no arms and no legs taking a bath?

[–] dumbass@leminal.space 18 points 8 months ago

The reason I couldn't eat stew for a decade?

[–] zurohki@aussie.zone 6 points 8 months ago
[–] Zoop 5 points 8 months ago (1 children)
load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] OldWoodFrame@lemm.ee 33 points 8 months ago (1 children)

A couple days ago my milk was all chunky when I tried to pour it in my cereal, because refrigerated air that was supposed to go to the fridge got blocked.

Milk wasn't expired, just went bad due to a random mechanical issue over the course of the length of time the milk was being preserved.

Anyway, what's all this about cryogenics?

[–] fencepost@infosec.pub 7 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Blocked by stuff or frozen up? If frozen, you may have a defrost timer problem.

[–] OldWoodFrame@lemm.ee 4 points 8 months ago

It was blocked by frost so uhh does sound like that second thing.

[–] Risk@feddit.uk 32 points 8 months ago

Rich people are truly fucking insane.

[–] Hobbes@startrek.website 32 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Did they get their money back? I didn’t read the article.

[–] CouncilOfFriends@slrpnk.net 9 points 8 months ago (1 children)
[–] Hobbes@startrek.website 6 points 8 months ago (1 children)
[–] And009@lemmynsfw.com 3 points 8 months ago

It's a generational loan. Their grandkids are paying

[–] jupyter_rain@discuss.tchncs.de 31 points 8 months ago

Forbidden soup

[–] Luisp@lemmy.dbzer0.com 27 points 8 months ago (3 children)

Reminds me of the Egyptian aristocracy, they would be pissed off if they knew their 4000 yo mummy will end up getting shown at a museum or destroyed by a tomb raider. But what would happen if they managed to revive them today, probably a temporary experiment on a lab, the pharaoh just lived in a closed environment for a couple of months and for most of modern day people it would be just some science news they scrolled by on tiktok

[–] frezik@midwest.social 25 points 8 months ago (1 children)

How about being ground up into powder and put into medicine? I'm sure they'd love that one.

[–] ICastFist@programming.dev 3 points 8 months ago

destroyed by a tomb raider

And not even a sexy, big breasted one with skintight shirt and very short shorts.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] dev_null@lemmy.ml 25 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (2 children)

If anyone is actually interested in learning how this works, this is a great blog post, from an author convinced like many that it's a stupid thing for the rich, until... Well have a read: https://waitbutwhy.com/2016/03/cryonics.html

[–] I_am_10_squirrels 7 points 8 months ago (1 children)

The author tries to disprove that cryonics isn't limited to rich people, while also pointing our the $200,000 upfront cost. Sure, a middle class American could probably swing the $300 annual fees, but most would be hard pressed for the $200k upfront cost.

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] sirico@feddit.uk 10 points 8 months ago (2 children)

As long as Simon Phoenix doesn't get defrosted I'm good

[–] dethedrus@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 8 months ago

Mellow greetings, sir. What seems to be your boggle?

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] Evil_Shrubbery@lemm.ee 10 points 8 months ago (2 children)
load more comments (2 replies)
[–] humbletightband@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 8 months ago

Anyway they were already dead when they were frozen

load more comments
view more: next ›