Smaller keyboards:
- Encourage you to move your hands less. Part of this is allowing your mouse to be closer, especially if you’re right handed.
- Aesthetically look cleaner and less cluttered
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Smaller keyboards:
This is it for me, I basically don't use those keys daily and can access them via a function key when I rarely need them, so I'm gonna prioritise the aesthetics and compactness.
For me, having the symbols I use in a function layer is better than having them spread around, because I don't have to move my hands as much.
Point 2 is absolutely subjective, though. Personally, I think a full size or TKL look a lot better than a compact. It's too distracting seeing something "missing" from a traditional setup. Though, I also like to have my keyboard and mouse a good distance from each other and spread out, rather than close and centered in front of me.
A mystery for me, the numpad is essential and at least 60 percent of the nav cluster is in constant use. And I prefer the full keyboard look
The numpad Is essential or completely useless based on the PC usecase
Yeah, that seems to be the case
PC players never use a spreadsheet or the calculator...?
Well of course no! Why should they, honestly! Do you really think a spreadsheet is a daily tool for the average person?
I didn't say "daily" . If the number pad is there, you can always just... not use it. The opposite doesn't exactly work.
Imagine you had to swim thru your bathtub to use the toilet every night. Sure it’s nice when you need to bathe, but more often you’re just going to want to skip over it to the thing you do more often—taking a leak. Rather than design your bathroom unergonomically, inconveniently, rearrange it to make more sense. You can buy separate numpads & place it somewhere else on your desk for when you need it, but keep the mouse closer to your keyboard.
Perfect answer
Chances are: they are there on smaller keyboards too. It might not be in the usual spot while also hidden behind a layer but its there.
This used to be a showstopper back when most of the available keyboards are not fully customizable firmware-wise. With the advent of QMK and VIA(L) on a lot of readily available keyboards, however, you can pretty much put any functionalities anywhere on any layer(s) you see fit.
The layer thing is really impressive, I'd actually love to have it on my normal huge keyboard. But I need the numpad available on the first layer, using a mouse is a must in my work
I ditched my numpad when I set up a layer that puts 456 right under jkl. My left hand hits the layer key (how much do you use both your left and right hands while using a numpad) so it’s right there and I don’t even have to move my hand. Doing so let’s me have the essential mouse closer to the boards.
It’s a full numpad, I’ve got the keys setup around it to put + - enter, etc there.
I’ll also add though, it’s an ortholinear so it’s also the same grid layout and a normal numpad.
Well damn that actually sounds good. How much time did it take you to get used to it?
The numpad usage was super quick, but my first (I’ve got a few and all follow that pattern) was a tented, split, ortho keyboard, the Iris. The ortho part for normal typing took me about two weeks or so to get up to normal speed. The split part has definitely helped my RSI though.
I definitely have tweaked my keymap for other special keys and media usage and such along the way. I’ve got the movement arrow keys under my sdf keys (for left, down, right, up on e) as well as of up and down on w&r so that hand doesn’t have to move either. Been living the ortho split life for 6 years now and I can easily type all day at work without any issues. (I’m a DevOps engineer so I do lots of typing, coding, console work all day long)
For a while at work I had a numpadless keyboard and a dedicated numpad placed right of my mouse (I'm right handed), I liked it a lot.
I wanted to try this but all keyboards I use have a numpad. The only thing that worried me was getting used to something you can't have on every pc
Hoo boy. This is an issue close to my heart about which I could talk for an unreasonable length of time.
I'm an accountant. Yes, spreadsheets. I always thought I you'd have to pry my numpad from my cold dead hands.
About 6 months ago I bought one of the saucy little mech boards of which you speak. A keychron k6. It was a whimsical purchase. It would make my thinkpad set up look better when I posted pictures to /r/thinkpad.
Turns out, I love using it so much that I can do without a numpad.
The core element to answer your "why not full size" question is simply that this little harlot fits in my backpack, where a 100% board would not.
Anyhow, I have a d-pad, and 2x function keys that can modify any key to whatever you want. So I don't miss having any of the extra special keys. It took surprisingly little time to get used to.
On occasion, I do have to grind through entering a list of numbers, but it's really not that often and doesn't take that much extra time.
I do have to grind through entering a list of numbers
Have you considered a numpad layer? They're great. All of the speed and convenience with none of the wasted space or extra arm movements.
I have a numpad for both hands on my Redox :-)
Woah that's cool. Gonna check that out.
The K6 is not programmable out-of-the-box, but it seems some people have successfully installed QMK firmware on it (with caveats); https://github.com/CanUnesi/QMK-on-K6/
If you just want to try the numpad thing out, it might be easier to use something like AutoHotKey. Here's an example of a script that uses CapsLock to toggle the numpad layer.
Of course, AHK scripts only work with the computer you've installed them to, whereas using programmable firmware will work regardless of which device you connect your keyboard to.
By the way, there is a !thinkpad@lemmy.ml community. Feel free to post there, we need content here on Lemmy. ;)
I don't know but I feel the same. My main gripe is with media keys, because I don't want Fn key combinations, but dedicated media buttons, which is increasingly rare. The most appealing keyboard I have laid eyes on recently is Das Keyboard which has a volume wheel, media keys and is full size, but it's very pricey and not perfect still.
I have a 40% ortholinear kb because it's more ergonomic. My fingers are never have to travel more than 2 keys away from home row. There are enough built in layers that I never feel like I'm missing a key. All keys are remappable. Beyond that I think it looks neat - folks always ask about it when they see it. When using a mouse and keyboard, my arms are kept at a reasonable distance apart (overall hands are closer together), so I can work or game longer without feeling like my shoulders or back are strained.
I switched to a TKL (tenkeyless) to reduce the distance between my hands when my right hand is on the mouse, and it feels so much better.
I got a programmable keyboard, so I remapped the keys around where my right hand rests to be the numpad keys when I hold the capslock key. That way I can still have the convenience of the numpad without having an actual dedicated numpad, although I'm still getting used to using it this way.
I liked having less space between my hands (left hand on the keyboard, right hand on the mouse). I also rarely use the numpad and other keys, so the negligible sacrifice was worth it for better ergonomics.
For most users/use cases, there isn't a need for for so many dedicated keys - if they are prepared to learn layouts with multiple layers. There are several notable advantages: cost, portability, reduced footprint (keeping hands closer together when using mouse and keyboard), and reduced finger travel/stretch. These last two are good preventative measures for carpal tunnel.
I chose a 40% ortholinear keyboard specifically because I make heavy use of the numpad in my work. I keep the numpad on one of four layers and I find using it to be quicker and more seamless to transition to than when using a full sized keyboard. I only wish that more manufacturers made ortholinear layouts....
Gamers generally want more room on the desk so their mice can travel further without needing to be repositioned.
I love having a numpad for extra keybinds in MMOs and for number inputs for work, but I've since switched to a TKL and never looked back.
I still miss the numpad but that thing can be bought separately, and not smashing my mouse into my keyboard is a big plus.
Looking into upgrading to a Wooting 80HE once that launches; it's like a TKL that wants to be questionably special, but given Wooting's reputation I'd wager it'd still be better than anything else on the market.
I like having more real estate for the mouse. If I need the numpad, I just reach for it.
I can live without the nav cluster. I can just Fn+arrows for pgup/dn/home/end. But can't live without arrows.
I like having more real estate for the mouse
It seems many people who answered here also want a smaller keyboard to position the mouse closer to the centerline, or make room for the mouse.
Perhaps I should mention my own setup then: I don't use a mouse 🙂 I use this - rather confusingly named - fabulous trackball: the Kensington Expert Mouse:
This is the best trackball ever. It's been around for many years. People who like trackballs swear by it, and I can't do without it.
The trackball is right up against the keyboard. So even though I use a full-size 104-key keyboard, the "mouse" is ergonomically placed and doesn't require a lot of space.
How does a trackball hold up when playing vidya that requires a mouse normally? RTS, ARPG, Indie Rogue lites, FPS, basically anything that may require twitch, precision and traversal.
Well, I'm not much of a gamer. But I regularly play Quake1, 2 and 3/Arena - which are traditional WASD + mouse games despite being old, and I have zero trouble aiming quickly and accurately, even far targets that are single-pixels. The Kensington has a big ball that really helps for fine control.
Of course, there's a learning curve, as with all trackballs. But once your favorite trackball becomes second nature, the (small) effort really pays off. I've used trackballs almost exclusively for 30 years and I've settled on the good old classic Kensington Expert Mouse, that's a beloved favorite of musicians who lack desk real-estate in their MIDI setup, server room warriors like me, and just about anybody who wants a precise mouse without having to sacrifice space. Also, there is something to be said for always having the same controls at the same place all the time when you need to move the cursor: that too reduces hand fatigue.
I'm much more a fan of the thumb trackball Logitech used to make:
https://www.newegg.com/logitech-910-001799/p/24W-001B-00008 as an example.
I've seen red or blue marble varieties. I think I've owned both, have bought like 5 of these over the years.
Currently using just a regular optical mouse, because it came with the keyboard, and is bound to the same usb plug, but I think I have one somewhere.
I rather have my keys closer to the mouse. I don't miss having a num pad at all.
I've recently built and am transitioning to a 50-key split-ergo keyboard. I code for a living so, a bit of getting used to, to be honest. The big advantage is in ergonomics and portability. Fewer keys means that fingers have less travel distance.
70% is the happiest middle ground for me: still have function row so less modifier-holding required (vertical space was never the issue) & tighter than tenkeyless while not giving up keys. Luckily these are readily sold & the default laptop keyboard setup. Numpads IMO are a niche peripheral that are rarely used & add stress to mouse usage since that numpad has to be crossed over every time for the average user; separate numpads can be bought and located somewhere more ergonomic.
I have a Glorious GMMK2 that I took to the office. It has arrow keys and the page up/down and end keys. (Home is fn+end). I find this to be the happy middle for me. The tiny boards with no arrows were frustrating. Big boards I get uncomfortable after a while due to the mouse being so far away. A smaller board that has the keys you regularly use is more ergonomic since you can keep your arms and hands closer to your core. I don’t mind using fn to access function keys or more rare use case keys. This very much comes down to what you do on your computer. When I had to type in user IDs non-stop working on a help desk…numpad was important. I don’t type strings of numbers as frequently now so it is not as important.
As a small keyboard user myself, I made the switch because I wasn't using those keys anyways and the few that I were could easily be handled with layers. I have one of those desks with the sliding tray where the keyboard sits, so being able to free up space so the keyboard fits comfortably is nice.
I use a keyboard with 64 keys (Keyboardio Model 100), with a layout that would likely drive any normal person mad: there are no numbers on the base layer, and all modifiers are on the thumb cluster. My top row is shifted symbols like @*$^%!&
. I love it. I can reach every key without moving my hand, which helped tremendously with my RSI. With clever use of layers, one-shot modifiers & layers (where one-shot means that you press and release a modifier, and it remains active for the next keypress only), I have access to every symbol available on a traditional layout and more, without having to move my hand or do weird finger gymnastics.
It's not a keyboard I'd normally carry (it's heavy, split, and takes up more space than a traditional full-size one), that's not why I like it small. I like it small because I don't need to move my hand to reach all the keys, and that increases my typing comfort a lot. I have no use for a dedicated numpad: I can just press my right palm key and turn that half of my keyboard into a numpad. If I'm typing a single digit, I don't even need to hold the palm key. If I'm typing a longer number, I can double tap the palm key to toggle the numpad layer on, and tap it a third time once I'm done. I don't need cursor keys, because I can tap the left palm key to turn the keyboard into navigation mode: the right side controls the text cursor (ie, arrow keys, page up/down, home/end), and the left side controls the mouse. Most of the time, I don't even need a mouse, because I can control the pointer from the comfort of my keyboard. I do have a trackball placed inbetween the two halves for the rare cases where I require more mousing than what is comfortable with keys, but... that's not used all that often.
So, in short, the reason I prefer small and split is because they let me type without moving my hand, or stretching my fingers uncomfortably, and I still have convenient access to every symbol I need. I might need to do a bit more "work" to type certain things, but that's a small price to pay for the comfort I gain by not having to move my hands.
I can write at ~120WPM with this setup (but I normally don't need to, my normal typing speed is closer to ~60WPM, because my speed is limited by thinking speed, not my typing speed), I write code with this, I write prose in both English and Hungarian, and I even play some games with it! (Most games I play with a controller though, because I can do that from the couch.)
Just because it is small doesn't mean it can't do everything a full-sized keyboard can. I just do the same things in a different way, with different compromises. With a full-sized one, if you want to type numbers, you either have to move your hand to the numpad, or use two hands to type something like 1994. I can type that number with one hand, without moving my hand: instead of moving hands, I switch layers. With a full-sized keyboard, if you need Home, End, PageUp, PageDown or the like, you either need to move your hand, or you need whatever program you're using to have different bindings for the same functionality. I can just press a key to go into navigation mode, and move the cursor whatever way I like, without moving my hands, or finding an alternative binding - works in every program, anywhere - instead of moving hands, I press an extra key. I found that pressing an extra key (especially if I don't need to hold it) is more comfortable than moving hands. I also found that not moving my hands increased my accuracy, because I don't need to find the home position when moving my hand back: it never moved in the first place.
I rock a full size realforce r2 at work AND and home because I feel more productive with a keypad and other helper keys. It's less mental overhead. I'm not using the mouse much when I type (modal editor)
I was team numpad all the way, but then I received a 60% as a gift and I have to say, I'm quite impressed with it.
It's pretty decent for gaming, you get more desktop real-estate for your mouse which is a huge plus. I'd also hazard a guess and say that the smaller size is more attractive for the average computer user.
Now that everything seems to take USB-C it's really easy to swap out your board for something more suitable for your task. So if you really need a numpad, you can just swap your full size board back in.
Depending on your use case, you might be surprised how far you can get with a 60%. I thought the lack of arrow keys and F1-12 was really going to bite me, but I can use them easily enough for most cases - but not always. For instance, I wish I could still select text with Ctrl + Shift + arrow/home/end, but that's out of reach now. But for 99% of my usage, it gets the job done.
Numpad not needed since already have number keys above the alphas (and you can buy separate tenkey pads if they’re really needed). The extra space on desktop gained by a shorter keyboard is far more useful. All of mine except two are TKL, the others are 60%. Below that you fall into specialist territory and having typed on QWERTY layouts with function keys for decades I think I’m a bit too old to unlearn and relearn typing, but some people find it fun to use weird and wonderful ortho, dactyl or 40% keebs with multiple programmable “layers”.
It probably feels more ergonomical, I would also have a smaller if I were to buy one tbh
I don't have a use for a numpad and it typically sits where I have my mouse so I rather have the space than the numpad. If I really needed one I'd likely just get an external numpad that I can plug in and have it to the side somewhere.
Personally, my favorite size / layout are , as they keep their F-keys and the Home / Page keys, but everything is compacted into one uniform block without useless gaps. Perfect blend between functionality and aesthetics for me.
User getting younger and keyboards smaller.
There’s a lot more keyboards without the numpad and the block of middle keys - whatever they’re called - or with the middle keys reduced or squashed up awkwardly on the side, than full-size plain old 102- or 104-key layout keyboards.
I don't like reduced-size keys or reshaping the block of six keys. My guess is that reshaping the block of six keys (Insert, Home, etc) is to mirror laptop layouts, so one doesn't have to switch between different layouts mentally. No real need on a desktop, but on a laptop, space is often at a premium.
But getting rid of the numpad is something that I am definitely enthusiastic about.
There aren't that many uses for the numpad. In my experience:
You actually do a bunch of numeric entry. I think that very few people do this, but for those people, sure, it's useful.
A few games use it, largely because it happened to be there for numeric entry. Because laptops don't generally have a numpad, shifting to keybinding schemes that use it have become far less common.
However, the numpad sits right where the mouse would ideally be if the keyboard is reasonably centered.
In general, I'd rather have my hands stay on the home row. If you have to use keys off in neverland, like arrow keys or F-keys or the like, you need to relocate your hands. Preferable to use modifier keys and chord them with regular keys in the "main block" of keys. If you're a vi or emacs user, you likely don't use the arrow keys for cursor movement.
There was also a trend back around, oh, early 2000s to have a bunch of extra keys added to the keyboard, stuff like Play, Pause, etc. That seemed to kinda fall out of favor.