this post was submitted on 08 Jan 2024
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Kagi doubles down on paid Brave partnership despite losing at least 0.5% of users in 1 day. And invoking Godwin's Law (kagifeedback.org)
submitted 10 months ago by flumph@programming.dev to c/degoogle@lemmy.ml
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"Should we not be buying VW, BMW, Siemens and Bayer technology and products today because they participated in holocaust and directly collaborated with Hitler?" -- CEO of Kagi when given feedback re: Brave partnership

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[–] noodlejetski@lemm.ee 37 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (7 children)

their CEO also moderates the discussion on Kagi's Discord. he's been removing criticism by queer folks, while - the last time I've checked before I've left their group - keeping replies like "stop shoving LGBTQ down our throats".

https://nyan.lol/@zicklepop/111716138453426218

edit: also their response regarding a request to add a "don't do it" widget to suicide searches basically boils down to "but if we make a moral choice now, we'll have to do more moral choices in the future!", which is... suboptimal. https://kagifeedback.org/d/865-suicide-results-should-probably-have-a-dont-do-that-widget-like-google/

[–] Deceptichum@kbin.social 23 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Was thinking about biting the bullet and getting Kagi, but this is sign enough not to let alone the OP.

[–] lemann@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 points 10 months ago

Same here. Looks like I'll be staying with DDG for a while yet.

[–] hydroptic@sopuli.xyz 21 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Ah fuck, I've been using Kagi but of course their CEO is a reich-wing asshat.

Anybody know of any other options? I'm not going back to Google.

[–] Brutticus@lemm.ee 6 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Ive been having pretty good time with searxng

[–] hydroptic@sopuli.xyz 2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Are you self-hosting or using a public instance?

[–] Aradia@lemmy.ml 8 points 10 months ago

It's much better is you use a public instance as your results will be harder to be tracked: https://searx.space/ choice your favorite one here

[–] flora_explora 3 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Maybe not too helpful, but I've been using startpage for years now and it still seems like the best option for me. It is google-based but at least private.

[–] hydroptic@sopuli.xyz 4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

I'd like to specifically avoid using straight-up Google as a source, proxied or not. Most of the smaller engines do seem to use Google for at least a part of their results, but for me that's preferable to having to completely rely on it since the results are mostly not very good

[–] dmnknf@lemmy.ml 9 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Wow, this topic in the edit is bad, and I wasn't aware of it. Just canceled my subscription. Now I have until 14/01 to choose an alternative.

[–] Aradia@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago (1 children)

https://searx.space/ works pretty well.

[–] Whom@midwest.social 2 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

The best I can say is that it technically does the job, just slowly and not particularly well. There really isn't anything which even approaches the search quality and featureset of Kagi. I don't even have the strongest opinion on working with Brave even though they're clearly awful given how monstrous both Google and Microsoft are (who are both part of the core foundation of their search), but their approach to this whole situation leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I turned off auto-renewal of my subscription but I really hope they take a step back and realize how much goodwill they're destroying for a significant part of their userbase so I can resubscribe. There's no suitable replacement.

[–] Aradia@lemmy.ml 2 points 10 months ago

For me, it is doing a good job, and it's pretty fast. I think in the past was slower and with many issues, but it improved a lot. I never tried Kagi and I don't think it's rational to "login" and identify myself to be able to get results, even if it's working better, everyone should be able to get good results without needing to pay.

[–] natecox@programming.dev 9 points 10 months ago

God damn it.

I am a paying subscriber to Kagi because the search results are excellent and there are no ads, so of course you show me a thread on “we should maybe add a small message to suicidal users telling them there is help for them” which then reads like a truth-social propaganda thread, filled to the brim with “helping people is a slippery slope!!!! muh freedoms!!” arguments.

[–] hersh@literature.cafe 5 points 10 months ago

As a Kagi subscriber, I've been very happy with their transparency in general. The feedback site is open to the public and Vlad and other staff members regularly engage in conversation about possible future features, limitations, and even business decisions in the Discord. It's been refreshing.

...which makes the response to this issue all the more frustrating and disappointing.

I think Vlad's comments in the original feedback thread were fair enough, but then later, in the Discord, I saw a lot of "let's move this to a private chat". They even changed their General channel to "slow mode" to prevent live conversations as this topic became hot. Now I see they were also deleting threads?! Ugh. That's not transparent at all. Not what I expected based on my previous experience with Kagi.

[–] 2xsaiko@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 10 months ago

Well, I was giving him a few days to backpedal but it seems like he's not going to do that. There goes my subscription, back to ddg I guess. Since they are supposed to be 100% subscription funded (they still are, right?), this is one of the few companies where that hopefully might actually have a noticeable effect if enough people care about it.

edit: also their response regarding a request to add a “don’t do it” widget to suicide searches basically boils down to “but if we make a moral choice now, we’ll have to do more moral choices in the future!”, which is… suboptimal. https://kagifeedback.org/d/865-suicide-results-should-probably-have-a-dont-do-that-widget-like-google/

Meh, good for them tbh. I find these messages to be incredibly patronizing and somehow I doubt you can find a single person who will say "google posting the suicide number has made me reconsider killing myself"

[–] HeavyRaptor@lemmy.zip 1 points 10 months ago

Reading about the suicide thing: I might try kagi again this year. This is the exact type of software I want. It should only perform its intended function (returning relevant results to any query) and not try to influence me into following someone else's moralisations.

[–] Dave@lemmy.nz 11 points 10 months ago

It sounds like they have rewritten their response.

Basically it looks like they get search results by combining results from other sources like Google and Yandex. Brave has a public API, so it's not a "partnership". It's just adding another search source, like using Searx to combine a bunch of results into one result feed.

[–] 1984@lemmy.today 9 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Is he saying that Brave ceo is comparable to Hitler... :)

Anyway, I'm staying with Kagi. People who search for perfect companies will search forever, and probably keep using Google while they do.

[–] heygooberman@lemmy.today 8 points 10 months ago (2 children)

I am no fan of Brave, but is there a way we can configure our Kagi preferences to exclude results from Brave Search? I think SearXNG allows for that. Under SearXNG preferences, there's an Engines tab, and under that, I can configure which search engines to enable and return results for my search. I haven't found anything like that on Kagi yet, but if anyone knows of a way to do it, please share.

[–] averyminya 2 points 10 months ago

It seems like Kagi's issues run deeper than the affiliation with Brave.

[–] kzhe@lemmy.zip 2 points 10 months ago

There will be according to the Discord but they haven't changed their attitude.

[–] nyakojiru@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Wow what a social drama for a search tool . People are bored af

[–] sab@kbin.social 27 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Nah, as a paying customer of Kagi and someone who cares about how I find information online, this is not about drama, it's about making informed decisions. In my case, the informed decision to cancel my subscription.

[–] lemann@lemmy.dbzer0.com 12 points 10 months ago

Also for a few of us who were considering a Kagi subscription, an informed decision to stay with our current search providers instead

[–] flora_explora 2 points 10 months ago

Hm, just based on the discussion in the linked thread it does actually read as drama to me. Someone on there asked how to ethically evaluate the decision to choose one search engine over another. How is Google or Microsoft any better than Brave? Sure, I wouldn't want to give brave any money. But I also wouldn't want to give these other companies any money either.

[–] Omega_Haxors@lemmy.ml 3 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Dogwin's law: Anyone who uses Godwins law is outing themselves as a nazi and should not be taken seriously.

[–] kzhe@lemmy.zip 2 points 10 months ago

They responded with some stuff (allowing users to opt out of Brave results/paying Brave) but it wasn't enough and their attitude hasn't changed. I want to leave but... nothing is as good enough. Keyboard navigable UI, better results, and easy custom bangs as well as the whole DDG bang library are amazing.