Technology
This is the official technology community of Lemmy.ml for all news related to creation and use of technology, and to facilitate civil, meaningful discussion around it.
Ask in DM before posting product reviews or ads. All such posts otherwise are subject to removal.
Rules:
1: All Lemmy rules apply
2: Do not post low effort posts
3: NEVER post naziped*gore stuff
4: Always post article URLs or their archived version URLs as sources, NOT screenshots. Help the blind users.
5: personal rants of Big Tech CEOs like Elon Musk are unwelcome (does not include posts about their companies affecting wide range of people)
6: no advertisement posts unless verified as legitimate and non-exploitative/non-consumerist
7: crypto related posts, unless essential, are disallowed
view the rest of the comments
Why? There are various arguments as to why the old audio jack standard is obsolete, but this discussion was essentially settled with the Fairphone 4, which was the first one that did not have a headphone jack. And they released a detailed article describing their reasoning..
https://support.fairphone.com/hc/en-us/articles/9836188988049-Audio-jack-3-5mm
The community? It's not as if Fairphone just willy nilly decided to get rid of the headphone jack, this was done with feedback from the community in mind.. Just because you are loud and passionate doesn't mean that your opinion is the only one that represents the community's.. As a fairphone user and "member of the community", I say fuck the 3.5 mm jack.. It's an ancient standard that was obsolete years ago,
And just to be clear, this isn't a discussion about wireless vs wired earbuds. You can have wired USB earbuds, you can even use your old 3.5 mm jack headphones with an adaptor. This is a discussion whether we should switch back to an ancient and inferior standard just because you are used to it..
And this entitled and wilfully ignorant attitude will make people take you even less seriously.. You can't "just add the headphone jack", decisions like that have an impact on all of the design of the device and have to be carefully evaluated.. You simply going "come on just do it, how hard can it be" will not convince anyone..
The only ignorant answer i'm seeing is from yourself.
The headphone jack is an inexpensive small connector that offers far better quality than bluetooth does (i.e. lossless audio), is universal and is a really inexpensive feature to add to a device.
The ONLY reason it has been removed is to push the sales of wireless headphones and earbuds. Fairphone got rid of it and soon after started selling bluetooth devices. And you just bought the marketing. As for the usb adapters, those are an extra point of failure and easy to misplace.
For all the good things Fairphone did, this is a really shitty one. If Sony can keep the jack on all their devices, anybody can, and the rest are excuses.
You don't like the jack? You can just keep using bluetooth.
Their responses address commenters directly, with an apple-esque "you are doing it wrong" attitude, instead of focusing on the actual subject matter - the 3.5mm jack itself. It's not really a discussion, it's much more comparable to victim blaming and trolling 🤷♂️. People are looking for a discussion, not an attack thinly veiled as a "solution". No point engaging IMO.
Regarding the actual topic though, I'm fully in agreement with you.
Here's why I don't feel as if bluetooth or dongles are an appropriate replacement: https://lemmy.one/comment/2684726
Since then I've also realised driver & codec support will slowly become a big issue as we move forward with dongles and bluetooth headphones, especially for people who prefer to keep their devices for longer
Some people will just swallow propaganda, and defend corporations even going against their own interests.
To be clear, i'm not against bluetooth audio, heck i even have a set of high end Jabra earbuds, but those are not a substitute for my AKG k702 or my Audio Technica M40x. Having an audio jack is about having an option, and we know companies are lying through their teeth because somebody managed to add an audio jack to an iPhone without losing any functionality at all.
Or maybe some people just don't care about using their smartphone as a premium audio device? The audio jack on a smartphone servers no purpose to me, it hasn't for years before smartphone manufacturers started moving away from it. It's nothing more than a unused plug that can potentially break and whether you like it or not, most people nowadays have the same opinion as me..
There was a discussion to be had back when apple started to push for it, one can even argue that this was forced by apple before it's time. But we aren't talking about that, we are talking about today, about what should happen with this upcoming phone that is supposed to be functional for 10 years..
The idea that they should reintroduce a standard that has since almost completely disappeared in the smartphone world because a small minority of people want to connect professional studio headphones that are about as expensive as the smartphone itself is absolutely ridiculous..
It's not always for professional headphones. I for example just want headphones that I don't have to charge, don't have to go into the settings if I want to use a different one, and doesn't occupy the USB port so I can charge when the battery dies while watching Youtube
You make it seem as if it was just apple that wants to get rid of the 3.5mm jack in the smartphone market, which is simply not true.. I don't care for apple at all and I don't see what apple has to do with this discussion.. That discussion has already been had, back when the fairphone 4 was released, but some people still make the exact same arguments as in the years before..
The subject isn't whether the 3.5mm jack itself is a viable standard.. The subject is if it is a viable standard for modern smartphones.. And by now, the direction is clear..
I don't see the 3.5mm jack disappearing completely anytime soon, but in the modern smartphone world, I don't see a reason why we should cling to the 3.5mm jack when we already have USB as a standard that has the same functionality.. Especially now, when the switch has already happened..
Great, but can you also tell me why USB cable headphones are not an appropriate replacement? This is what I find so frustrating about this discussion, people always pretend that the options are either keeping the 3.5 mm headphone jack forever or using bluetooth headphones..
USB headphones is yet another product manufactured with a narrow usecase, the audio world by and large outputs to either 2.5, 3.5 or 4.4 every step of the way. USB is completely phone centric.
Lack of a unified USB standard, meaning you will still have to deal with adapters to have compatibility across all devices. My PC for example only has USB A, my phone has lightning, my wifes has usbc, many peoples office PCs will also not have USB C just yet, although it does become less common to have a device without USB C.
USB output is digital, that means that you need to convert it to analogue, so your headphones need to put a DAC into them or the wire.
In many cases of headphone use you will actually not want the USB such as working with them in professional environments where you will be plugging them into an audio stack, where the autput is analogue already.
Some headphones need an AMP so power straight off the USB is not an option.
Balanced output.
A standard jack covers most usecases, headphones will never move to USB standard, they are analogue devices and should not have to have USB support on their end.
It's still an unnecessary addition to modern smartphones that has an impact on design, etc..
And once again, you ignore what I wrote in my comment and try to turn this discussion into a discussion about "wires vs wireless/bluetooth" when it's obviously not..
If using an adapter is too much of a hassle for you, get a wired USB headphone.. It's funny, you pretend that the only viable options are either bluetooth or an obsolete standard. We already have a new standard.. We had it for decades now.. And it's already built into and used with virtually any modern smartphone. But no, because you are used to your old standard, you demand that the old standard is still used in addition to the new standard..
This isn't about what we could and couldn't do.. We could go back to using cassettes if we wanted to, there just isn't a good enough reason to do it as far as most people are concerned..
Look at your comment, you can't give me a good reason for your argument. Your only argument is "but it's not that much of a hassle" and "everyone used it in the past so we should continue using it"..
I can just use bluetooth, or I can just use USB. So can you.
But can you give me one argument why we should, in addition to having both bluetooth and USB interfaces on our smartphones, have an additional plug using a standard from the 1950s that we can ONLY use for audio when we already have to have a USB plug that can also be used for audio?
No, just because you say "it is obsolete" doesn't make it so.
Yes, i'll give you my argument. The headphone jack is an industry standard, has been for decades and will be for much more time. Audio equipment, recording interfaces, anything that has a minimum of quality standard uses wires and jacks.
The 3.5mm jack adds 0 latency and allows for much, MUCH, higher audio resolution and don't have to compress the audio before allowing you to hear it.
The usb plug is just a stupid cop out. It's not really a standard, is something that was born as an excuse. Why should i have a more fragile connector that has to rely on electronics when i can use a cable that i can fix myself if it breaks? Also, please point me in the directon of some high end headphones with a usb connector. And i mean high end, reference quality, not some brandless crap from amazon.
Because Fairphone are arguing in bad faith. If they were really concerned about repairabilty, they would have kept a reliable and easy to fix jack instead of selling overpriced bluetooth earbuds.
If anything, this whole ordeal is a constant reminder that corporations are not our friends, and that some people will somehow just blindly defend them.
It's not obsolete because I say so, it's obsolete because it has no function that cannot be replaced with USB, an interface that is already present on every modern smartphone..
The fact that we have done something in the past or had a certain standard is not a good argument for keeping it indefinitely..
Of course it is... Apart from the Iphone, every smartphone has an USB C interface.. Yes, it is kinda a mess with differences in quality etc, but as far as the interface goes, USB C is the standard nowadays..
It's already there.. Even if you have a modern smartphone that still has a 3.5mm jack, you still have to have a USB port to charge your phone, etc.. So the actual question is:
Why should a modern smartphone have an additional 3.5mm audio jack that servers no function other than audio when that function is already taken care of with USB (or wireless)? I can see an argument if we were talking about audiophile tech, but we are talking about smartphones..
What do you mean with "high end"? "Audiophile stuff"? The focus is obviously on wireless stuff nowadays because most people don't care that much about audio quality, especially not when listening on their phones, but there are USB headphones:
https://www.androidcentral.com/best-usb-c-headphones
Why? It's just another additional port that can break.. I'm sure selling wireless earbuds played a role in their decision, they are a business after all, but that doesn't mean that it was the only factor in their decisions or that there aren't viable reasons to move away from the headphone jack..
Of course corporations aren't our friends, they are businesses.. And you can imply that I'm "blindly defending them" if you want, just as I can claim that you are blindly clinging to an outdated standard that has by today virtually completely disappeared in the smartphone world and that there would be no benefit in bringing it back..
That's a pro, not a con. If I break my 3.5mm I can still use USB or bluetooth. But I will not break my charging port with headphones
One day smartphones will be small chips implanted into our brains and you people will still complain that they don't have a headphone jack.
Funny you say this because I'm using one as I write this. Why? Because simply plugging in my headphones into the phone is way faster then connecting ones using bluetooth, because I just have pair of small cheap headphones in my backpack and because I wanted to listen to music now. Yes, I have BT headphones but those are big (over the ear headphones with big case) so I left them at home. Yes, I could get spare, small BT headphones but those are way more expensive and I would have to remember to charge them. Also, if I forget to bring headphones to work desktop support can give me a pair... with 3.5mm jack. So I'm also avoiding phones without a jack and it's not because I'm stubborn. It's because every now and then I still find myself using it. The day I stop using it I will be ready to get a phone without it.
You using obsolete technology doesn't make it any less obsolete..
Why do you keep trying to turn this discussion into a discussion of wireless vs wired? I'm not saying wires are obsolete, I'm saying the 3.5 mm standard is obsolete when it comes to modern smartphones because it's a standard from the literal 1950s (which is ultimately based on a standard from the 1800s)..
I don't have a 3.5 mm headphone jack, yet I can simply plug my wired headphones in using a wire too and just use it without bluetooth.. And I can use the same standard plug you too have in your phone already.. Why do we need an additional interface just for headphones when I can use the one that I already need to have in the first place?
It does actually. The fact that I can go to literally any electronics store and choose from dozens of different 3.5mm jack headphones, the fact that my laptop, my PC, my BT headphones and my phone all bought within last 2 years have 3.5mm jack interface literally proves that it's not obsolete, it's still in use. I would say that in the near future it will slowly become niche (jack interfaces will be in use in musical instruments for a very long time. find a entry level electric instrument with BT please) but it's definitely not obsolete. You're making things up.
Yes, with time more and more people will buy USB-C headphones, it will become a standard and dropping jack will not be an issue but the problem is phones makers, following Apples stupid idea, started doing it first. One of phone's functions is being a portable music player. Why start removing jack where they are used the most? I wouldn't complain if my BT headphones used USB-C for wired play, they came with non-standard cables anyway. I use my PC with BT headphones (almost) exclusively, I wouldn't care if it dropped the jack. People complain because with phones they are losing function they actually used, not some obsolete port no one was using any more.
While I share your disgruntlement, this is both cheap and easy to use. Should you have to use it? No. Would needing it stop me from getting a phone I otherwise wanted? Zero chance.
Oh, I agree. If it came down only to mini jack or no I would just get the phone and the dongle. The thing is, when I'm looking for a new phone, I check the price, if it's LOS compatible, if it has pinhole camera, how long will it be supported and so on. When I'm down to couple of equally good options and some of them are 'dongleless' I will go with that. It's a small issue but it's not a non-issue.
And once more it turns into an argument about definitions.. I thought it was clear from context, but I'm using "obsolete" here to mean "old fashioned" or "outdated", a perfectly viable way to use the word "obsolete" if you ask me.. And I mainly used it because as I mentioned, this discussion was settled with the previous fairphone.. Perhaps a better word to use is redundant and/or outdated.
The jack has been THE standard for decades, arguably centuries.. Frankly, I am surprised how fast the smartphone world switched. But of course it doesn't disappear over night, but that doesn't make it any less outdated/obsolete or whatever word you want to use here.. And there will still be viable headphones with the 3.5 mm audio jack, just not in the smartphone world.. That's why I wrote "the standard is obsolete when it comes to modern smartphones"..
The 3.5 mm jack is going to disappear from the smartphone world completely. Will it still be useful in some other cases? Sure, I don't see a viable replacement in some parts of the audio world. But in the smartphone world, where every single mm has an impact, it is, in my opinion, simply obsolete, especially when you already have other interfaces built in that essentially can do the same thing already.. It's just additional space being used that is not needed..
It already is a standard and it has been a standard for almost 10 years by now..
Of course they did, nobody wanted to be first to challenge a standard that was always the norm with portable devices, but no smartphone manufacturer wants a plug in their device that is unnecessary or redundant, which is why most followed once the first major player made the move.
Because at the end of the day, it's useless space.. And I get it, switching a standard, especially a standard that is so widely used, is always annoying for some time-period. But the switch started 7 years ago..
No, people complain because it's a change and change is annoying.. There is no actual loss of function, the audio jack doesn't have any function that USB doesn't have.
Well, I think you're simply wrong. I remember when PC makers stopped including floppy disk readers in the computers. Everyone just shrugged because no one was using them any more. Same happened when laptops and cars stopped including CD players. Same with many different ports and connectors. This is how it should be done: you introduce new, better standards, people switch and when it's actually obsolete (no one is using it any more) you remove it. People were (and are) still using mini jacks and companies simply decided to force the new standard on people. That's why people complain.
I think there is a fair argument to be made that back when apple pushed away from it, it was forced. I personally didn't care, but I understand why some people did.
But that's not what we are talking about, we are talking about today.. What's done is done..
Most people weren't and certainly aren't.. The people who still cling to the jack never seem to understand this, but most smartphone users simply don't care about audio quality on their phone.. Most people don't even listen to music on their phone.. And among those who do, most don't care or even notice the loss of quality with wireless.. And for the few who care, there are alternatives, such as adapters..
And just as a reminder, we are talking about the upcoming fairphone 5, a device that has the goal of lasting 10 years.. There is no reasonable justification for putting a port on it that has by now virtually disappeared from the smartphone market and that most people would never use..
Wow, that's a bold statement. After a quick ddg:
So yeah, 'most people don't listen to music on their phones' is only true in the sense that most people in the world don't own a phone. Lots and lots of people actually do it. I think you're looking at yourself and thinking that everyone is using a phone the same way you do. In reality people were used to just plugging their headphones into heir phone and now they can't. New standard was pushed on them and the only reason was to make some extra money on AirPods. Are the phones without mini jack cheaper? No. Are the USB headphones better? No. So yeah, people will move on in the end but they are right to complain. If we don't companies will just do it again.
If you think that it is a bold statement you absolutely live in a bubble..
Most people in the world do own a phone.. About 75% of the global population.. It's just that most use it to access the internet, write mails or, you know, call people..
As your study says, young people do listen to music on their phones. It even surprises me a bit that they only listen to 44% of their music on their phone, but otherwise, no objection. But not every smartphone user is a young person.. And even those that do use their phone to listen to music, not all of them listen with headphones. Many use it to play music in their car, or connect it to speakers, or even use their built in speakers, etc.
I used to, but the thing is, I do actually listen to music on my phone. Not as much as I used to, but I still do from time to time. And many in my immediate environment do too. But overtime, I realized that most people don't use their phone the same way I do, especially older people and non-technical savy people. Most listen to music in their car, or on the radio.
In reality, most people simply did not really care very much.. And more importantly, virtually nobody cares today..
Correct, and virtually everyone just shrugged and accepted it because most people did not care all that much..
My dude, people have already moved on years ago... Apple removed the jack in 2017.. Which is why I think it's ridiculous that people still act as if this is a controversial issue, let alone a dealbreaker, looking towards the future..
OK, so a quoter of all music consumed everywhere is consumed on the phone but you still claim that people don't use phones for music. I mean, if that's your point of view then obviously you will say that nothing related to music on phones matters. If you ignore all the people that care about an issue you will conclude that no one cares. Even though obviolsy a lot of people still care...
But I have never claimed that "people don't use phones for music", I claimed that most people don't use their phone to listen to music on their headphones.. Many do, me included, but most simply don't..
But I don't conclude that nobody cares.. Obviously at least some people care, this post was made by somebody who does for example.. But the thing is that a majority of people don't..
You keep making the same point: majority/most people didn't care so it's ok. I get it. You have a different standard. If a corporation can get away with something because most people will still blindly buy it's product it's ok for them to do it. But for me what Apple did was wrong. Mini jack was not obsolete, significant (for me, I know not significant enough for you) number of people were still using it and their decision didn't result in a better or cheaper product. It just made them more money while removing important feature for a lot of people (again, I know, not enough for you to care). And I simply try not to reward such behavior. Even you admitted they only did it for profit, not to deliver better product but you just don't care. That's fine, just don't criticize people that do care. It costs as little to protest (by avoiding companies that do the same) and we'll do it as long as we can.
You made a claim that I wrote something I didn't write, do you expect me to just let you put words into my mouth?
The vast majority of people interested in the fairphone have "a different standard"..
Ok, great, you have an opinion. An opinion I can completely understand. What does it have to do with this post though?
It wasn't. But it's not 2017 anymore..
Of course they did, why else would they do it, they are a company.
I will criticize whoever I want because it's fucking annoying to have the self-rightous jack defenders pretend martyrers proudly proclaim that they will sacrifice themself and not buy the newest fairphone because "fairphone went against community demands" and act as if they are the majority and represent the views of "the community" IN 2023..
They don't.. Most people in the fairphone community didn't care about the jack back when it was removed.. Most members of the community preferred a slimmer phone to a headphone jack back when the last fairphone was released. And despite of this, you still had some loud-mouths who acted as if their opinions alone represent "the community", ignored all the discussion in the community and claimed that fairphone acted against community interest.
And as "a member of the fairphone community", I didn't say anything, like most who don't care about the jack, because I don't care about the jack, I care about being able to change parts, I care about it lasting for many years and I care about it being small enough to fit in my pocket comfortably.
That was years ago, back when the fairphone decided to do this. And now, the upcoming model doesn't bring it back (to the surprise of virtually nobody) and you have the same wannabe martyrers saying stuff like "just bring it back, how hard can it be, the community demands it".. No, the community doesn't demand it.. The community demands a modular and long lasting phone that is slim and cheap at the same time..
Do whatever pointless posturing you want, just don't act as if you are in the majority or represent all of a community when you don't..
What I mean that you're only point is "you're not the majority so shut up". You're confusing this with some zero-sum game. Me having a mini jack in the phone doesn't mean that you, a person that doesn't care about one, is somehow disadvantaged. There still are flagship phones with mini jacks. Those phones are not bigger or more expensive. You agreed already that Apple didn't remove the mini jack to make the phone smaller, it was just to make more money. It's the same 7 years later, people still don't believe it's for any other reason than to make a little bit more money. Ok, so you're a docile consumer. When company does something you don't like you just say 'well, I'm in the minority, I will still just buy it without complaining". That's ok, do you. It's just weird you're so annoyed with people who do complain, especially on lemmy. Linux has ~3% market share. I guess we should just stop complaining when companies don't support it, majority of people don't care. Most people don't care about privacy, they care about cheap and easy products, let's stop complaining about Google and Meta tracking everyone. And obviously no one here represents any community. People just express their opinions.
My only point is "you're not the majority", you don't even need to shut up, you can have whatever opinion you want to have, just don't pretend to represent "the community" when you don't..
It's an additional port that needs to be included into the design and that needs physical space. And it's another way to get dust and/or fluids into the phone, all without any benefit for me or most users.. You can claim that the impact is minimal, but there still is an unnecessary impact.
Everything apple does and other companies do is to make more money, that's pretty much the entire motivation behind anything companies do..
Of course it is to "make more money", or rather to save money on things that have no measurable benefit for most users..
No, when a company does something I don't like or that is a dealbreaker for me, I don't buy the product..
People can complain about whatever they want. What is annoying to me is when people say stuff like "the community has been requesting this for a couple years ago now so why not." or "adding a little headphone jack shouldn’t be that hard" when this debate has been settled years ago already..
Again, you can complain all you want. But if somebody made a post saying "Google is still using, selling and tracking user data. The community has been requesting that they stop doing that years ago, so why do they still do it? They only do it to make money. Just stop doing it, shouldn't be too hard.", it would in my opinion be a ridiculous and pointless post..
Ok, I agree, the OP was wrong to pretend that he represents the community. So we agree that removing mini jack made the product worse for a lot of people, those people have the right no to buy this product, they have the right to complain, they just shouldn't not do it in the name of the entire community. Let's call it a day.
Devil's Advocate as I agree with you, but feel this point should be covered:
Why not make a headphone jack module? If the phone is so easy to repair, then it should be pretty modular, so giving a choice (and probably making it one of the most expensive modules because the demand is DEFINITELY not going to be there to make it cheap through numbers) could not hurt and only help the FairPhone, right?
Again, Devil's advocate, I already know a few potential arguments, but I feel like it was a point being ignored that should be covered
How is it obsolete, I understand a lot of people not needing it but all Audiophile products still need a physical connection in the form of 2.5, 3.5 or 4.4mm jack. 3.5mm has been a standard for the longest time.
I'd rather have that instead of a additional adapter to connect my iems. Only benefit in my case was that it allowed me to use a balanced connection for the same added cost.
In my opinion, it's obsolete or outdated standard when it comes to modern smartphones.
Of course adapters are not an optimal solution, but again, USB headphones are a thing.. I definitely see the argument for wired headphones over wireless headphones, but I don't see a reason why we should use 3.5 mm audio when we can simply use USB, which is an interface that is already the standard..
3.5mm is an audio source, USB is a data source. Any headphone with a USB plug also has to convert digital to audio, something your phone already does. USB is not a replacement by any means.
Audiophile grade gear are meant to be connected to variety of devices through a standard. I'm not asking for a cheap usb headphone just to remove a cable. You're solving the wrong problem here.
Pfft, real audiophiles will use a DAC or a DAP
Although I'm not willing to carry something additional to my phone and earbuds to listen to music.
Not the biggest priority while mobile, wired would have a bigger impact except high impedance or low sensitivity gear.
You don’t need a DAC if the phone has a jack, you only need one if it doesn’t, you might need a DAC/AMP for some headphones but most cans people will carry on the move will run just fine off an inbuilt jack.