this post was submitted on 30 Jun 2023
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I want to be clear on my bias here: I firmly believe that open source would not be a 'thing' if it weren't for Red Hat. Linus Torvalds himself once said (albeit 10 years ago) that the shares he received from Red Hat before their IPO was 'his only big Linux payout'. I don't think anyone would disagree with the statement that Red Hat has had a major significant positive impact on Open Source across the world.

This morning I listened to an excellent podcast called "Ask Noah" where he interviewed Red Hat's Mike McGrath who has been active on the linux subreddit and other social media. It seems that Mike has been involved in the decision to restrict Red Hat's sources on git.centos.org:

    https://podcast.asknoahshow.com/343 (listen at ~20 mins)

It's really worth a listen. Mike clearly lays out the work that Red Hat (I was surprised to find out that it is NOT the Rebuilders) does to debrand the Red Hat sources, why they're pulling that back on those unbranded sources, and that they understand the ramifications of doing so. It's also interesting that Mike is of the opinion that there is nothing wrong with doing a Rebuild, and he defends them by stating "that's the cost of doing business". Noah and Mike go into many of the nuances of the decision and again, it's really worth listening to. Mike also talks about "bad faith" when dealing with the Rebuilders at 40:30, which I think explains Red Hat's decision. I got the distinct feeling he's bound by some ethical code so he won't/can't say too much though.

There's also this discussion about Rocky Linux securing a contract with NASA:

    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36417968

that had a lot of internal discussion at my company this week, which given what's just happened may shed some more light on Red Hat's decision.


There are always two sides to every story but in this case there are three sides to this story.

On one side, you have Red Hat, a long time champion of open source software, that has poured billions of dollars into open source development, and which has 1000s of employees who not only on 'company' time but in their own time manage, develop, contribute, and create open source code. They have funded countless successful and unsuccessful projects that we all use.

Against Red Hat are two largely distinct groups. The first is the Rebuilders themselves, who Red Hat has claimed 'don't offer anything of value back to the community'. This is not meant to be a statement on the usefulness of the rebuilds (Rocky, Alma, Oracle, etc.) but rather a very directed statement on whether or not the rebuilders are providing bug report, feedback, and contributions to the packages that Red Hat has included in RHEL.

The second group, which stands somewhat behind the Rebuilders, are the Rebuild users. One could argue that the users are caught in the middle of Red Hat and the Rebuilders, however, I think it is better to look at them as being an equal 'side' in this discussion.

The Rebuild users are in a very unfortunate position: they're about to lose access to a free product that they've come to depend on. They are, as expected, unhappy about Red Hat's decision to stop providing access to RHEL sources. My next statement is callous, and I expect it to be read as such: You get what you paid for. That is not meant to indicate anyone is cheap, it's just that you shouldn't have expectations when you are using something for free.

Here's the interesting part for me. As far as I can see, none of the users are jumping to the Rebuilder's defence of Red Hat's accusation that the Rebuilders provide nothing back to the community. And, as far as I can tell across various social media and news platforms' comments sections, largely the user community AGREES with Red Hat's position. Informed users -- not all users -- are using a RHEL Rebuild knowing that there is no benefit in doing so for the community.

I have yet to read a reply from the Rebuilders where they categorically deny that this is the case. And to me, that's glaring and damning of the Rebuilders' position. Even the 'defenders' (for lack of a better word) of the Rebuilders have yet to provide a response.

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[–] Choctaw@lemmy.radio 22 points 1 year ago

Red Hat Enterprise Linux is built upon the work of a lot of other people outside of Red Hat because they could access the source code, so let's not lose sight of that. And their business is supporting customers that use their product, which means a lot of the coding is in solving problems for their customers for which they're compensated and send fixes upstream which also benefits them in pulling and compiling later. And lets not confuse past support for free software from a gobbled up megacorp that they are today that is operating in their own self interest. Personally, I think they're acting in a short sighted manor because they're afraid that new entries will be able to do as well or better a job at support than they can and take away business or beat their price points. And by exposing themselves in cutting off source code and violating the GPL with their customer license agreements, they're actually going to force the competition they're afraid of to ramp up their abilities more quickly. Short term they might sell more licenses, but they're also irritating a lot of people to go elsewhere and not use their product, and it will cost them in the long run from stronger competition and reduced market share. But then that's the way of megacorps, short sighted focus on revenue and stock price over positioning for long term success. Just look at how their parent IBM has fared over the years, scroll down to the graphs on revenue.

https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/ibm/ibm/revenue

[–] someLinuxDude@reddthat.com 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)

One other thing I want to add: I've read a bunch of comments about how the Rebuilds were used in educational and scientific settings, and that there is a prohibitive cost for RHEL in those environments. After reading so many comments about it, I have to believe that Red Hat is going to make some modification to their Developer License program to allow more than 16 'seats' for those use cases.

[–] turdas@suppo.fi 3 points 1 year ago

I don't have any expectations of them doing this (but I also have no expectations to the contrary), but I think it would be a good move from Red Hat to make the official RHEL more available, as you suggest.

In another thread I compared the RHEL rebuilds to piracy, and in that vein one could quote Gabe Newell and say that piracy is a service problem -- part of the reason Alma/Rocky/etc. exist is because there is a group of users who want to use RHEL but cannot afford it. Red Hat seems to believe that these users should be satisfied with CentOS Stream, and maybe most of them would be, if they only gave it a try. But making RHEL more widely accessible, both to paying users and developers, would probably be good too.

[–] 30021190@lemmy.cloud.aboutcher.co.uk 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Yes, from what I've heard they are raising to just over 200 (iirc there was already an agreement for this but the caveat being the type of services the systems ran) which still doesn't cover many educational and academic research scenarios. We'd only be covered about 30% and we operate a comparatively small environment.

[–] digdilem@feddit.uk 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Accusation that the Rebuilders provide nothing back to the community.

Actually, what Redhat are saying about rebuilders is that they "don't add value" - and that's for Redhat, NOT to the community which they patently do. That's quite a badly twisted misquote there, friend.

Also, Redhat didn't create open source software. They're a big player, sure, but I remember writing and releasing my code back in the 80s and 90s when it was called Freeware and Public Domain and distributed on cassette tape.

[–] livingcoder@lemmy.austinwadeheller.com 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

What's the harm in doing a rebuild? Serious question. I simply don't understand where the harm comes from. I would appreciate any insight. Thanks.

Edit: I find the answer to my question at the end of this productive conversation.

[–] someLinuxDude@reddthat.com 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I don't think there is anyone arguing that a Rebuild by itself is a problem. Given Mike's comments in the podcast linked above, the problem is when one of those (or many of those) Rebuilders competed directly against Red Hat for a contract.

From the general feeling I get from reading many threads on this issue, the general consensus is that the community agrees that, specifically, this behavior by the Rebuilders is wrong.

[–] livingcoder@lemmy.austinwadeheller.com 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Oh, I see. But what do you think of this translation:

"Company Foo makes TVs and is always working to make them better. They give them out for free with the hopes of making money installing them and providing guidance on how to use them, but someone starts Company Bar and installs them for cheaper and starts taking on installation jobs."

Is this wrong? Isn't this just the definition of an open market? Please let me know if I'm missing some kind of context. I hope that we can continue to discuss this respectfully.

I should say that I want any open source project with the motivation to write good software to have all of the funding they need to make that happen. I just don't see how it can be justified in this instance when compared to any other market.

[–] someLinuxDude@reddthat.com 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

There is no problem with your scenario, and it's spot on to the issue that Red Hat has raised.

However, the piece you're missing is that the TVs come from Foo. They don't have to give company Bar TVs to install. If company Bar doesn't have TVs then what should they do? They have some choices: work with Foo or develop their own TV.

[–] livingcoder@lemmy.austinwadeheller.com 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I don't see how Company Foo can dictate that all other entities (customers, for example) can receive a free TV on their doorstep (since the code is open source) except for Company Bar. To make it map better to the situation, Company Bar would receive a shipment of free TVs, rebrand them, ship them out to customers, and install them.

"They don't have to give Company Bar TVs to install." So the GPL doesn't require that Company Foo permit free access to the TVs? They could decide to not give out their TVs to anyone?

Also, what if I wanted to get my cousin a free TV but charge him a few bucks to install it? Is this only a problem at scale?

[–] someLinuxDude@reddthat.com 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Here's where your analogy falls apart. The TV isn't being shipped to everyone. It's being shipped ("rebuilt") by Bar, and then installed by them. They're free to do that but Foo is under no obligation to help them do it.

[–] livingcoder@lemmy.austinwadeheller.com 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Within the analogy (as it compares to Redhat and the Rebuilders), how is Foo helping Bar? Isn't Foo simply leaving the TVs outside the factory for people to come and pickup? A bunch of trucks branded "Bar" come by, pick some of them up, rebrand them, and take jobs to install them, jobs that Foo thought they were going to get? Isn't Foo now requiring individual people to walk through a lockable door, sign their name, verify that they don't work for Bar, and grab a TV instead of just leaving them outside in a pile?

[–] someLinuxDude@reddthat.com 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yes, that kind of makes sense, but Foo was leaving the TVs outside because they thought that was the most expedient thing to do. It takes effort to move them outside, and Foo doesn't want to do that anymore. So now Foo, as you point out, has moved the TVs inside where only paying customers can get them.

[–] livingcoder@lemmy.austinwadeheller.com 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

And the GPL is okay with that? Can every repo under GPL put up a paywall?

Google: "The GNU General Public License (GNU, GPL, or GPL) is a free software license originally written by Richard Stallman of the Free Software Foundation, which guarantees that users are free to use, share, and modify the software without paying anyone for it."

[–] NekkoDroid@programming.dev 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The GPL only applies to those that get the software that it is applied to. So if I sell you a program FooBar v3.2 under the GPL you have the right to get the source code for FooBar v3.2, which RedHat still does.

But FooCorp only sells you FooBar if you agree to their license, which is independent of the GPL. And should you breach the terms of FooCorps license (redestributing the source of any program they provided you) they cancel your license and can refuse to sell you any further versions of FooBar.

The GPL in this case is still in tact since you can still request the source for FooBar v3.2 and you can do anything you want with it, just the part of redestributing it violates FooCorps license and they refuse to sell you v3.3. But you can still request the source of v3.2 even after the FooCorp license breach.

So... the GPL in technicality is not violated at all (to my knowledge) but maybe in spirit it somewhat is, due to if you want to exercise all the Rights the GPL gives you, you would have to breach FooCorps license.

[–] livingcoder@lemmy.austinwadeheller.com 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Ah, okay, this makes sense. I was confusing the product for the source code. If they provide the product, they must provide the source code but they (obviously) aren't required to provide a product to everyone, so everyone is not entitled to the source code.

I appreciate all of the information and discussion. Thanks all.

To respond to my own initial post: the harm comes from the fact that Redhat is entitled to be the sole distributors of their source code by way of requiring that all those who desire access to the product affirm that they will not distribute the source code the GPL affords them, thereby stopping raw rebuilds of the product (but also potential extensions of Redhat).

[–] randomguy2323@lemmy.fmhy.ml 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

It seems that he is bother by how they rebuild it and then do not add or contribute any code and then sell support to the customer on REHL work which in my opinion its not okay and I will agree with RedHat.

[–] user32dll@programming.dev 6 points 1 year ago

Nice post, and a good overview over why RedHat is doing what it’s doing.

Before reading this I wasn’t really feeling good about redhat and the stuff happening rn but now i’m able to understand the decision making and there’s still hope for me that redhat won’t turn into a shitshow in a couple years haha

Also working with RedHat in the past has been quite nice so it’s good that i don’t feel a slight hate against the company anymore.

Quite hard to solve the problem when everyone is so emotional

Thanks again for the very informative post!

[–] Woozy@dmv.social 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I have one major quibble with your analysis. It is this: Redhat no longer exists as an organization. Redhat is merely a trademark of IBM. You can't defend IBM's actions based on Redhat's history. That was a different company

[–] haroldstork@lemm.ee 3 points 1 year ago

Thanks for a solid assessment of the situation and providing some sources 👍

[–] mc1472@lemmy.fmhy.ml 3 points 1 year ago

First off your argument that red hat deserves to see returns on their investment. But restricting redistribution of "their" software is a direct violation of the GPL license that they agreed to by working with GPL software.

Not to mention that the reason rocky Linux exist is because red hat killed centos.

Ree Hat has stabbed the community in the twice with the help of IBM and greed. My only hope is Oracle sues them over this express GPL violation, or that IBM's lawyers realize there will be trouble. In my opinion anyone at red hat that tries to justify this should be ignored.

[–] rbos@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 year ago

Red Hat wants to inherit the hard work of millions of developers doing billions of hours of work, to take that common heritage built by three generations of people's work, and take it away. To which I say, nuts.

Your colonial bullshit is not wanted here. You can't just walk in and say "this is mine".

[–] randomguy2323@lemmy.fmhy.ml 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Was Almalinux and Alpine charging customers for support in their builds?

Alpine is completely separate by RHEL by a country mile (hell, it doesn't even use glibc). You're probably thinking of Rocky

[–] someLinuxDude@reddthat.com 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I don't think Mike McGrath called out any specific company but if you look at that ycombinator link it looks like the 'offender' was Rocky Linux. That is purely speculation on my part.

[–] randomguy2323@lemmy.fmhy.ml 2 points 1 year ago

Well if thats the case thats really bad in my opinion , I might side with Redhat on this one.

[–] dadarobot@lemmy.sdf.org 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)
[–] someLinuxDude@reddthat.com 2 points 1 year ago

If I listen to that video will I, in fact, get a laptop for free? Inquiring minds wanna know.

[–] someLinuxDude@reddthat.com 1 points 1 year ago

So joke aside, I don't see anything in that video that is a defence of the Rebuilders against the accusations made by Red Hat. Is there something I was supposed to get out of watching it?

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