“in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance.” - Karl Popper
this post was submitted on 28 Jun 2023
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Gotta love the good ole tolerance paradox
No paradox there: tolerance is not a moral precept. Relevant quote:
Tolerance is not a moral absolute; it is a peace treaty. Tolerance is a social norm because it allows different people to live side-by-side without being at each other’s throats. It means that we accept that people may be different from us, in their customs, in their behavior, in their dress, in their sex lives, and that if this doesn’t directly affect our lives, it is none of our business. But the model of a peace treaty differs from the model of a moral precept in one simple way: the protection of a peace treaty only extends to those willing to abide by its terms. It is an agreement to live in peace, not an agreement to be peaceful no matter the conduct of others. A peace treaty is not a suicide pact.
While I understand what you are getting at, it is literally self-defined as 'the paradox of tolerance' by Karl Popper.
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Not a paradox. Tolerance is a peace treaty, not a moral precept.
We don't call it a "diplomacy paradox" when a country responds to getting invaded by killing the invaders.
Isn't that what Karl Popper, the guy quoted for saying that, calls it though?
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It does seem like .world is trying to corral itself and curb the issues that flared up from their growth, so that's very promising. Meanwhile, shit just works is still an absolute dumpster fire.
Actually, sh.itjust.works removed their c/thedonald community so they seem to be taking steps in the right direction too. Still probably not time to refederate until more granular mod tools are developed but it's a promising sign.
Edit: Apparently they haven't defederated from exploding heads yet, so that is a thing still. Come on sh.itjust.works, just do the thing. Make your instance better for it.
There's been a vote up in their agora community for over a week now about defederating from the nazi instance. Administrators have done nothing. Not a good look in my opinion
edit: spelling
Oof, yeah. That's not great. At least we have Beehaw 🐝🤠
I GET IT! BEE HAW!!
🤣 I'm glad I could be here to witness your realization lmao
I don't know how I managed to take so long LMAO
Lmfao I don't know how you didn't get it earlier, cause it's so obvious. But for everyone else who doesn't understand the joke, not me of course obv but for everyone else, what's the joke?
Beehaw is a pun of yeehaw, the thing cowboys say. Hence the bee with a cowboy hat as a mascot.
The bee also has a lasso.
Beehaw, welcome to the Yeehive
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I've messaged TheDude about that, asking him to consider making a statement about the situation. It's apparently on his ToDo list, he didn't anticipate the controversy taking place in that post, and the team and himself are still pondering what's the best course of action (skimming through the comments manually, re-voting...)
If I'm a bit disillusioned by the community, I still want to believe in his good faith. He seems like a guy who launched a little hobby project on his free time, expecting a few dozen people to join, and is now overwhelmed by having to handle one of the biggest Lemmy instances.
The like one dude running sh.it.do.nt.wo.rk is in over his head I think.
Beehaw admins have done a great job of keeping the toxicity to a minimum. I don't regret my choice of home instance.
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? I get nothing but good impressions from shit just works users, content and admins.
And it's good, I browsed a little bit the linked comments and their posts, and it's a reason I joined beehaw at first... no extremists, fascists, racists, etc.
I hope also one day beehaw federate again with LW, I had to create an account on LW because they have good communities too.
sh.itjust.works also killed their c/thedonald community. Both of those instances are doing pretty good self moderating and preventing hate. Still dont need to refederate until the tool set gets better but I have accounts on both now and read them as much or more than beehaw.
Well, they still federate with exploding-heads.. I don't know if I'd say they're doing good at preventing hate, it kinda feels like there was just a lot of pressure to kill c/thedonald.
It's still a step in the right direction at least, but yeah, if they don't defederate from that instance it kind of says a lot about their attitudes. I was trying to be optimistic that them removing that community might signal that they're going to defederate from that instance next.
The latest comments I saw from the admin was that they would defederate from instances with hate speech and bigotry (https://sh.itjust.works/comment/476848) but yet there's been no action so while I want to be optimistic, it's a bit hard. Their community already had a discussion about it and it seemed positive that they should defed but no action (https://sh.itjust.works/post/151703).
Hopefully .World defeding will push them to act.
I hope so too, but at least there's always Beehaw 🐝🤠
Honestly I'd rather refederate with .world before them anyway, at least .world seems to be trying to keep on top of this stuff despite their massive user growth. Looking forward to updated versions of Lemmy where that more granular moderation control is available.
I suspect all the big servers are struggling to find footing, and I’m giving a bit of latitude in my opinions. The three mains we’re talking about here pretty much span the spectrum of management styles. It will be interesting to see them evolve.
My suspicion -- and this is coming out of my behind -- is that rather than being proactive about these things, they're setting themselves up to learn a hard lesson about known troll tactics. They're trying to be all free-speechy and user-decisiony, but spaces like TD just draw people who will not ever actually follow the server rules.
So, they'll keep dancing over this line, giving these communities the benefit of the doubt, only to discover time and again that they don't care about their rules, and they'll have to be banned.
End of the day, I think TheDude is being a naive idealist. A lot of us can see from 20,000 feet where this will lead, and can't help but be frustrated by this approach. I've seen people assuming the lack of action is a backdoor endorsement, and that TheDude is more than happy to have his instance raided by the nazi instance. I'm uncertain whether I believe that, and heavily lean towards that I do not, instead thinking he's running the 5th fastest growing instance while also falling for the Alt-Right's playbook. He may not want his instance to be a favorite place for nazi sympathizers to hang out, but if he keeps at this, he will foster an environment where it will be a favorite place for nazi sympathizers to hang out
Yes, exactly.
He's going to be playing wack-a-mole against Nazis while also trying to live up to expectations of the freeze peach crowd, and be left constantly scratching his head as to why the game just keeps on going.
"Oh shit! This is a nazi bar!"
"Wait a minute, there's something bothering me about this place...
"I know! This Nazi bar doesn't have a fire exit!"
And then his democratic idea of voting them out will fail because the nazis will outnumber the allies
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I have a noob question. From a technical point of view, why does it matter to server A (beehaw) whether server B (world) federates with C (exploding nazis) or not? Since A is defederated from C, the content should be unavailable anyway. I completely get why a proper moderation of B itself is crucial, but what B federates with should be irrelevant if B itself stays "pure", right? Again, from a technical point of view, because otherwise willingly federating with nazis obviously strongly correlates with allowing nazis inside. To reiterate, how is A directly affected by what B federates with? Is it merely a matter of lobbying or is there some technicality I'm missing here?
I think it's more just the stance beehaw has in general. They don't want to federate with the Nazi instance, or anyone that wants to do with them. Same way people don't want to hang out with racists, or people who also hang out with racists.
I do share the sentiment, was just wondering whether there is more to it. I presume the answer is "no" then. (and that's fine!)
From a technical standpint, it doesn't matter. The point is more just that it's an indicator of moderation style and what we can hope to see in the future.
The user's comments are also content, and Server A can see threads from Server B, where Server C is trying to radicalize people to Nazi beliefs.
Basically Server C uses Server B's neutrality to spread
And at that point, server A has to rely on Server B moderating for that, or their members still have to see that.
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Hear hear!
I can't remember if that's good or bad in British parliament.
As Earth-friendly pollinators, do we just shake our butts at each other to express agreement?
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Off Topic. I wish we had a link to the beehaw version of this thread so i could comment on it.
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(watches everyone else talk about their Lemmy and Beehaw accounts)
Uh... I have a Kbin account. Neigh. Neigh.
"WUSS!"
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