this post was submitted on 17 Sep 2023
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Hyprland is an open source Wayland compositor based on wlroots, a project I started back in 2017 to make it easier to build good Wayland compositors. It’s a project which is loved by its users for its emphasis on customization and “eye candy” – beautiful graphics and animations, each configuration tailored to the unique look and feel imagined by the user who creates it. It’s a very exciting project!

Unfortunately, the effect is spoilt by an incredibly toxic and hateful community. I cannot recommend Hyprland to anyone who is not prepared to steer well clear of its community spaces. Imagine a high school boys' locker room come to life on Discord and GitHub and you’ll get an idea of what it’s like.

I empathise with Vaxry. I remember being young, smart, productive… and mean. I did some cool stuff, but I deeply regret the way I treated people. It wasn’t really my fault – I was a product of my environment – but it was my responsibility. Today, I’m proud to have built many welcoming communities, where people are rewarded for their involvement, rather than coming away from their experience hurt. What motivates us to build and give away free software if not bringing joy to ourselves and others? Can we be proud of a community which brings more suffering into the world?

Update: Response from Vaxry, Hyprland Developer

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[–] sky@codesink.io 99 points 1 year ago (1 children)

[A trans person] joined the Discord server and made a big deal out of their pronouns [..] because they put their pronouns in their nickname and made a big deal out of them because people were referring to them as “he” [misgendering them], which, on the Internet, let’s be real, is the default.

Damn I didn't know women didn't exist on the internet! Also "making a big deal out of ones pronouns" is almost never the case, it's always just a normal request for the respect of addressing someone properly.

[–] KSPAtlas@sopuli.xyz 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Does drew not know about the existence of singular they? I use that unless i know their gender properly

[–] drspod@lemmy.ml 30 points 1 year ago

These are not Drew's words, he is quoting something said by the project dev. The context that the previous commenter ommitted is:

Following my email conversation with Vaxry, he appeared on a podcast to discuss toxicity in the Hyprland community. This quote from the interview clearly illustrates the attitude of the leadership:

[A trans person] joined the Discord server and made a big deal out of their pronouns [..] because they put their pronouns in their nickname and made a big deal out of them because people were referring to them as “he” [misgendering them], which, on the Internet, let’s be real, is the default. And so, one of the moderators changed the pronouns in their nickname to “who/cares”. […] Let’s be real, this isn’t like, calling someone the N-word or something.

[–] starman@programming.dev 97 points 1 year ago (4 children)

As someone on HackerNews said:

I've never felt the need for any "community" for my window manager of choice

[–] phario@lemmy.ca 56 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Hmmm. If abuse happens, is the right idea to say that “I don’t need this community”?

I’m not sure how that HackerNews comment helps in the slightest. If my university has an obscure basket weaving community and people are getting abused in that community, should I just say “Eh we don’t actually need a basket weaving community”.

It’s also amusing to me that a commenter on a relatively obscure and niche website is complaining that that don’t need (or care about abuse that transpired on) a niche community from another website. And then this comment is echoed in yet another niche community.

[–] RaivoKulli@sopuli.xyz 35 points 1 year ago (1 children)

"You shouldn't use this window manager because their community is toxic"

"I'm not going to interact with the community"

Seems fair enough

For real. Not everything needs to be a fucking subculture. Next they'll be saying, "The WinRAR community is toxic". Like no, your discord server is poorly moderated. The problem starts and ends there.

[–] starman@programming.dev 18 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I just wanted to point out that it's ridiculous to form some kind religion¹ around a wayland compositor.

Also, I don't want anybody to think I'm supporting what's happening there. I just don't really care about Hyprland's community because I'm not part of it.

¹Hyprland's discord server is named "Church of Hyprland"

[–] aard@kyu.de 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This is a pretty old joke. See "Church of Emacs".

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[–] Zucca@sopuli.xyz 6 points 1 year ago

Yeah.

At maximum a bug/issue tracker is needed.

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[–] deadcade@lemmy.deadca.de 56 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I can personally vouch for how toxic the Discord server and its moderators/admins are. Went there for support (Hyprland was crashing on startup on AMD, sway worked fine), and was told something along the lines of "if you can't figure this out you're stupid and you should stop using Linux". Figured out the issue on my own and stopped using and recommending Hyprland after that.

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[–] Fizz@lemmy.nz 43 points 1 year ago (3 children)

All this over some discord server drama. I cant blame the dev for wanting to code and not waste his time moderating.

[–] kionite231@lemmy.ca 26 points 1 year ago (3 children)

It's the developer's responsibility to moderate the discord server properly.

[–] sado1@kbin.social 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's the moderation staff's responsibility. Sorry for nitpicking, I understand in this case it's likely the same people.

I just get triggered when I hear that an open source software developer should have any responsibilities at all (maybe apart from some extreme examples), and I wouldn't like this idea to stick in anyone's head.

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[–] ReversalHatchery 22 points 1 year ago

That douchebag can't even moderate himself. I wasn't considering trying out hyprland, but after this I wouldn't feel safe running his code on any of my computers. I can imagine that it would do some "prank" if it found out that I'm thinking differently

[–] Zucca@sopuli.xyz 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)
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[–] mojo@lemm.ee 42 points 1 year ago (3 children)

this guy just learned about discord general chats lol

they're all this bad, and also they're absolutely dogshit for open source software so I have no idea why people make them

[–] moonpiedumplings@programming.dev 12 points 1 year ago (5 children)

I'm in the max server limit, 100 right now, and many of those are people who treat discord as github, which is so annoying (but many projects are of questionable legality, like Dan's palace which makes and distributes completed android and vita ports of other games for free).

One time I got excited since there was announcement for the half life 2 android source port discord. I thought it was a big update or maybe a new game, but what I saw was something like:

the memes channel is for memes, not child porn

It's just discord that has these issues. Matrix or IRC don't have these problems. Discord just creates a kind of culture that fosters this stuff.

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[–] beteljuice@lemmy.ml 34 points 1 year ago

I stopped using it because of a couple shitty interactions on Discord. I don't know anything about the developer himself but the company he keeps sucks. Using the word "cucked" when talking about breaks in dependencies... and being told "see if I care" when pointing out a race condition I found in initialization that caused problems with multimonitor setups.

No thanks. Sway works great. No need for eye candy.

[–] ExLisper@linux.community 29 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Who cares about the community? If it's useful and works I will use it. It's not like I'm paying for it. If the community is toxic people will not contribute to the project. If they don't need contributors they can do whatever they like.

[–] vredez@discuss.tchncs.de 8 points 1 year ago

Rare to see people with common sense these days.

[–] xavier666@lemm.ee 28 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Your first mistake was joining a Discord group for a software product. Github pages / bug-tracker or GTFO.

[–] blindbunny@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago

Fucking right? Let alone a open source project.

[–] spiffeeroo@programming.dev 28 points 1 year ago (2 children)
[–] Kata1yst@kbin.social 53 points 1 year ago (2 children)

What a tone-deaf response, yikes.

[–] FaeDrifter@midwest.social 46 points 1 year ago

Yeahhh, he's like "everything was taken out of context to smear me", he shows the context and it doesn't make him look any better.

It's a shame bc I really wanted to get into hyprland, but I won't get involved with a project that is okay harassing people for being trans.

[–] InstallGentoo@lemmy.zip 16 points 1 year ago (1 children)

His response is perfectly rational. You need to stop getting offended over every small thing on the internet.

[–] zwekihoyy@lemmy.ml 47 points 1 year ago (1 children)

treating people respectfully is not getting offended. please touch some grass and open your eyes.

[–] InstallGentoo@lemmy.zip 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Did you read his response? These were a few small incidents blown out of proportion. Maybe grow a thicker skin?

[–] zwekihoyy@lemmy.ml 24 points 1 year ago (1 children)

that's not really the point considering this didn't occur in a vacuum. this one event can come to just be a grift and what I said will still be true.

[–] InstallGentoo@lemmy.zip 9 points 1 year ago (6 children)

I only have two things to say:

  1. Stop bringing your politics into free software and creating unproductive drama
  2. Stop being so fragile to get offended by random teenagers on the internet
[–] Kata1yst@kbin.social 21 points 1 year ago

Interacting with people without harassment is hardly "politics".

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[–] MBM@lemmings.world 23 points 1 year ago

The final bit is interesting. Vaxry says Q (who was openly bigoted) got punished, but doesn't mention prisj (who was slightly less open about it).

#general does indeed sometimes have jokes that some people might treat as "controversial".

And if you really need a place with controversial jokes, split it off from your support server or something.

[–] GenBlob@lemm.ee 25 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

It sucks that cool projects like hyprland are usually riddled with toxic weirdos that ruin it. It also sucks that there's not much to choose in the wayland space that's usable and actively developed but I refuse to use hyprland after seeing this.

[–] RaivoKulli@sopuli.xyz 24 points 1 year ago (3 children)

It wasn’t really my fault – I was a product of my environment

Riiight.

[–] TeryVeneno@lemmy.ml 28 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

You kinda left out the next line in which he says

But it was my responsibility

That’s the whole statement and tbh I agree. It’s never anyone’s fault for being a bad person, but it is 100% their responsibility to right their wrongs.

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[–] Zamundaaa@discuss.tchncs.de 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The very next words are "but it was my responsibility"... what exactly is bad about that statement if you don't intentionally cherry pick a bad quote?

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[–] AI_toothbrush@lemmy.zip 21 points 1 year ago

Just dont interact with the community. Theres an excelent wiki that details everything.

[–] michaelmelanson@lemmy.ca 14 points 1 year ago (5 children)

This is a good enough reason to fork a project and establish a new community with new norms.

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[–] Dirk@lemmy.ml 13 points 1 year ago
[–] ryannathans@lemmy.fmhy.net 11 points 1 year ago

Mom, people on the internet are being mean again

[–] kilgore_trout@feddit.it 11 points 1 year ago

Take every opinion from Drew DeVault with a grain of salt.

[–] lckdscl@whiskers.bim.boats 11 points 1 year ago

CW: slurs, bigotry

Well this was apparently their chat log. I found the link through the comments on Hacker News. Whatever you think of Drew, he's not wrong at all, they sound like they just discovered 4chan.

[–] Blizzard@lemmy.zip 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)
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[–] leastprivilege@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago

I just switched to hyprland and although the discord general chat isn't for everyone, they have been helpful when I ask stupid questions and need a little help.

[–] _cnt0@feddit.de 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Well, we live in a democracy: 9 out of 10 people enjoy bullying or don't care about it. If you hate democracy, go to North Korea, snowflake!

(obvious /s is obvious)

In other non-news: Using a software doesn't require visiting a loosely associated unofficial community. This has strong vibes of people wanting to be Christian and changing Christianity while being opposed to ~half the bible's content if they bothered to read it. Just fuck that cesspool and move on with your life ...

[–] ReversalHatchery 8 points 1 year ago

It is not obvious. Look at the comments, there are weird people here too.

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