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At High School Debates, Watch What You Say (www.thefp.com)

submitted 1 year ago by haxe11 to c/chat

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[–] ffmike 22 points 1 year ago (2 children)

The article here takes a bit stronger stance than "losing debates because of tweets":

The NSDA has allowed hundreds of judges with explicit left-wing bias to infiltrate the organization. These judges proudly display their ideological leanings in statements—or “paradigms”—on a public database maintained by the NSDA called Tabroom, where they declare that debaters who argue in favor of capitalism, or Israel, or the police, will lose the rounds they’re judging.

The article calls out five judges for being biased. The NSDA site shows 47,168 paradigms. So, while there may be an issue, there doesn't seem to be much proof here. It could equally well be that the author is cherry-picking instances that fit his ideology.

[–] king_dead 10 points 1 year ago

It doesnt help that this website is yet another daily wire like

[–] orbit 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Very good point - I think however it's worth noting the lack of the NSDA's addressing of the judges biases and the high levels of debate within that organization the specific people oversee.

Regardless, and to the authors point, if an alternative org is provided that people prefer, it will gain popularity.

[–] ffmike 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

My own high school debate days are decades in the past. From that perspective, though, the fact that you can easily look up the judges' biases, and so prepare for them, is a huge advance that we would never have even dreamed of. To me that seems like explicitly addressing biases in a useful way.

I'd be interested in a more serious analysis that went through all 47,000+ paradigms and categorized biases so some non-anecdotal conclusions could be drawn. That would take a lot more time and money than picking out a few instances that the writer knows about.

And yes, if an alternative ends up being liked better by debate coaches, people will go in that direction. It's entirely possible that debate competition will end up being as fragmented as national politics.

[–] alanine96 2 points 1 year ago

Yeah, I actually really like the idea that people bring their biases/ideologies/paradigms to the table and you decide whether it's worth using a particular argument to convince them. That is how political speech works, fundamentally.

[–] alyaza 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Very good point - I think however it’s worth noting the lack of the NSDA’s addressing of the judges biases and the high levels of debate within that organization the specific people oversee.

to be honest though i'm not really sure how you can address human bias here, and i'm confident this was also a problem before people started complaining about wokeness like they are here. obviously in an ideal world you would have a system that can impartially adjudicate these things--but these debates are often on very real subjects that impact real people. (in a lot of cases, i'd argue there is even a correct answer to most of these debates that inevitably looms over them.) i suspect the easier route is to just bake in the reality that people will have biases and that's a part of convincing them in the debate process.

[–] orbit 1 points 1 year ago

I see that and you explained it well. I guess it's the idea that in the debate it's not about the merits of your ideas but things outside the debate that affect if you win or lose in this scenario that's the problem for me. Point totally taken though that we'll never fully remove the biases, I just think we should try to be as even handed as possible in these educational settings.

[–] animist@lemmy.one 17 points 1 year ago

Lmao freepress is a right wing rage bait site, take it about as seriously as the news your kitchen table reports

[–] king_dead 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Jesus christ what blood sucking billionaire thought it was a good idea to give Bari Weiss another website?

[–] alyaza 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

yeah speaking purely about the link here (and not OP, who i'm sure has normal reasons for posting it) i was initially interested in what this had to say but immediately seeing a site with Bari Weiss involved is a red flag, because she has nothing interesting or principled to say about free speech or where it's being violated. unfortunately, this site also strikes me as yet another uninteresting, right-wing one that primarily peddles articles like "Free Speech Is Being Destroyed On College Campuses By Woke Libtards And Cucked Teachers" that conveniently ignores the concerted political effort by Republicans to ban queer people from the public space and libraries and other venues of public speech from acknowledging their existence. and the article here doesn't really dispel my presumption.

[–] haxe11 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I've never visited this site before today and don't know who Bari Weiss is. I saw this on another news aggregation site, thought it was interesting, and I am curious about what this community thinks about it, bias of the website aside.

[–] alanine96 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's impossible to discuss topics like this and leave the bias of the website aside; further down in the article, when they're not talking about the tweet, they say asking people to refrain from using gendered language when they don't know the gender of their opponent is "creating an atmosphere of fear":

The irony of the NSDA’s obsession with “safety” is that it actually fuels an atmosphere of fear among students—the fear that they will lose if they once said the wrong thing on Twitter or accidentally refer to their competitor as Miss. This fear is palpable. The NSDA debates—once a forum for the open exchange of ideas—have become a minefield of political correctness, says NSDA student Briana Whatley, 15, of Miramar, Florida.

That makes it clear that this isn't about high school debate at all; it's about the ongoing push to scapegoat trans people. And that isn't a topic that is up for debate or discussion.

[–] haxe11 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I don't necessarily agree that the existence and effect of social media on young people is the same thing as the marginalization of transgender people.

[–] alanine96 4 points 1 year ago

Me, neither. That's why the article loses credibility to me by positioning the two side-by-side.

[–] alyaza 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I’ve never visited this site before today and don’t know who Bari Weiss is.

ah, lucky you! Weiss apparently runs this site (just checked) and is generally infamous for being what amounts to a free speech concern troll. she most infamously resigned from the New York Times (where she previously was an op-ed columnist) over what amounted to people criticizing her takes both inside and outside the newspaper. i'd generally characterize her as interested in free speech only when it's conservatives saying heinous things being shut down, and never when the aforementioned queer people are actually having their free speech and right to exist threatened by an entire political party. she's also a very ardent, self-described Zionist and seems to suspend that interest in freedom of speech when it comes to people critiquing Israel. it's... corny, to say the least.

[–] haxe11 1 points 1 year ago

I believe everyone has their blind spots, but yeah, it appears that this person is too big of a distraction for people to look past. Personally when I read anything I view it from the lens that a human with bias wrote it and that it could potentially be propaganda. But just dismissing everything everyone writes as "fake news" is something I don't agree with either. It's a tough thing nowadays, deciding who and what to trust.

[–] AnarchoGravyBoat@kbin.social 9 points 1 year ago

@haxe11

Lol, they were biased 20 years ago when I debated.

It all depends on the local community judges are recruited from.

I lost rounds multiple times with the only note being "Global warming is a lie"

Nobody wants to judge debate tournaments except former debaters and parents forced into it by their students.

You get what you get when it comes to debate judges.

The author of the article is clearly biased themselves.

[–] pixxelkick@pathofexile-discuss.com 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Summarized:

Bigots are astonished to discover they are largely unwelcome in society and that their actions have consequences, and that the majority of people (especially in places like a debate club) are not interested in giving bigots a platform.

Later tonight: Sports Celebrity is astonished to discover that even though he is really good at , he is kicked off the team for criminal actions earlier that week.

[–] haxe11 1 points 1 year ago

You think that answering a hypothetical question on the Internet after misunderstanding the question should mean that that person, a child even, should be shunned by society?

[–] haxe11 4 points 1 year ago

I saw this and was surprised that this sort of thing is allowed. Shouldn't debates be about the debate itself? I feel sorry for kids these days with having to be so careful with an online presence.

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