this post was submitted on 25 Jun 2023
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Dr. Angela Collier plays the Binding of Isaac: Rebirth and talks at length about what went wrong with string theory, and how that affected science communication.

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[–] StringTheory 70 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

It seems a little over-the-top to be angry at physicists from 30-40 years ago for being wrong.

Scientists aren’t priests, and science isn’t a religion. Expecting scientists to always be right, always be humble, and everything they add to “science” to be sacred and correct and immutable is a little silly.

This is how science works. It’s messy. It goes in delicious looking directions that turn out to be dead ends. Humans create ideas (with all the hubris and errors of being human) that other humans test (with all the hubris and errors of being human.)

I was struck by how angered she was by physicists thinking they were right and saying “we’re doing something real”. They were doing something real: they were exploring and testing an idea. Without that work, the idea could never have been proved wrong.

(My personal “string theory” is that string/cordage is humanity’s greatest invention, and my user name is a joke.)

[–] flora_explora 32 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Not sure if you are serious? If so, I think you probably didn't understand why she is angry. As she clearly states, studying string theory in itself is totally valid. But the way they presented their ideas or let their ideas be presented is the reason she is angry.

[–] StringTheory 16 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yes, I’m serious.

They presented their ideas the way every excited scientist does. Being angry at them for that is kind of silly. Should I be angry that I was taught the “fact” that animals and plants migrated between stationary continents via land bridges? That scientists were excitedly drawing up complex bridges and timelines? That they told everyone about their fabulous revolutionary bridges? Nope. It’s just one funny step in a funny dance humanity does.

Angrily putting up a picture of herself as a child in the 90’s who was excited about string theory and saying she was betrayed by later work? I don’t get it.

[–] krogers 21 points 1 year ago

I watched the video a couple of weeks ago, I think, so my recall might not be exact. However, my takeaway wasn't that the scientists expressed excitement about their ideas. Instead, I think her issue was that they continued to outwardly express excitement and hype their field even after it was obvious that it was an avenue of inquiry that could never be meaningfully tested. I think she found these later actions to be disingenuous and harmful to the larger field.

Whether her assessment is accurate, I can't really say since this isn't my field. However, I recall many of the discussions she cites in her summary and her characterization seems fair. My gut says that there is at least some validity to her criticisms.

[–] masterspace@lemmy.ca 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Who is "they"? Every string theorist ever?

Her rant is dumb because she's mad at Brian Greene and is instead othering an entire group of physicists who simply worked hard on theory they thought might lead somewhere.

[–] flora_explora 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Well, I meant the field of string theory and the leadng scientists she mentioned. And calling her rant dumb seems like you are dismissing her argument without actually thinking about it. So you probably aren't interested in an open discussion either...

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[–] interolivary 32 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I didn't see it as her being angry at the ones 40 years ago, but the ones who continued the hype even though it was obvious string theory wasn't falsifiable

[–] StringTheory 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The ones who were human and were full of hubris and errors and didn’t want to give up their pet theory?

Being angry at humans for being human is kinda futile. Humans have always done this, and always will.

And the excited physicists didn’t destroy science communication any more than Stephen Jay Gould did. People can be wrong. People can cling to things they cherish and that they poured their heart and years of effort into.

People are people, and this too shall pass.

[–] jellyfish 19 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's also very human to commit murder; humans have always committed murder, and always will. That doesn't mean I can't be mad at someone for doing it..

[–] StringTheory 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think murder might be a leeeeeeeetle bit different than refusing to give up on a theory you worked on for 30 or 40 years.

[–] jellyfish 25 points 1 year ago (1 children)

My point is that saying you can't hold something against someone because it's human nature isn't a reasonable argument.

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[–] potsnpans 11 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I do think this is more an issue with science communication broadly than string theory specifically - every field has its own examples, and medicine is notorious for it - but she is right that scientific researchers (the subject matter experts) have a responsibility to accurately communicate their work when speaking to the public.

Its one thing for an enthusiast to inadvertently oversell a concept to the public as fact because they are excited and only understand at only a basic level. It's another entirely for someone who's been researching that concept for 30-40 years, with the express intent of proving or disproving its validity, to oversell it as fact when they're whole job is to be intimately familiar with its shortcomings. They, of all people, should know better - and that means they have a responsibility to do better.

Science does get messy, by design, but it is the duty of those who communicate their science to be honest about that messiness, not mask it by unfounded statements to sell their ideas to people that don't have the research expertise to spot the falsehoods.

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[–] FaceDeer@kbin.social 40 points 1 year ago (10 children)

I think she leaned a bit too heavily onto the notion that string theorists, as a whole, were lying. I think more likely they genuinely thought they were on to something. They may have been wrong but they didn't think they were wrong. A lie is deliberate misinformation, not simply being mistaken.

[–] VoxAdActa@kbin.social 22 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Like, ok, at first? Sure, I can go with "it's not a lie if you actually believe it," in 1985 or even 1995. But by 2010? Come on. And then in 2020, to be like "Well, I mean, I never specifically said I believed in it, just that, you know, it was a thing..." is so gross. It's like some shit my ex-wife would have said after a three-day-long running argument about some basic fact of the universe.

[–] masterspace@lemmy.ca 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That's 1 string theorist, Brian Greene. It is absurd to call all string theorists liars. Are all psychologists liars because they had a reproducibility crisis?

This was a half-cocked and not through rant that others and blames a whole group of hard working physicists just because they were wrong. This kind of rant has no place in the scientific process or science communication.

[–] VoxAdActa@kbin.social 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That’s 1 string theorist, Brian Greene. It is absurd to call all string theorists liars. Are all psychologists liars because they had a reproducibility crisis?

That's like saying NDT is "one astrophysicist" or Freud is "one psychologist". We're talking about the guy who brought the entire concept to the public, and he's sure as shit not the only guy who wrote fantastically optimistic treatises about a concept that real physicists didn't bother with because it was inherently unfalsifiable due to being entirely untestable.

None of them wrote books that said "Yeah, this is a cool thought experiment that will never be able to do anything scientific hypotheses are supposed to be able to do". Fuck, just make another thread asking "What do y'all think about the Many Worlds hypothesis?" and you'll get a hundred comments talking about how cool it is as they walk straight out of the real of science and into the realm of crackpot woo-woo speculation. BECAUSE OF THESE PEOPLE.

Yeah, I agree with the video. After a certain point (I'll be generous and say that point was 2000-2005), it was a lie. A scam. A con. No different from the guys who say the pyramids were alien landing markers and Stonehenge was built by fairies. It was a load of people saying nonsense stuff to sell books and speaking engagements.

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[–] niktemadur@kbin.social 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Back in the late-80s or early-90s, I remember OMNI Magazine ran an interview with a researcher of veracity in science publications as a topic, don't remember anything but a whopper of a quote in which he said that around a third of science papers fudge the numbers, even if just a little bit, to make them fit the hypotheses.

[–] hglman@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Which is why the funding mechanism of science is so profoundly unscientific. Funding must be based on the quality of the experimental process, not positive results.

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[–] hihusio@kbin.social 7 points 1 year ago

science is a liar sometimes

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[–] Dee_Imaginarium 34 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

Found my new favorite science communicator, she did such an awesome job here! I'll have to check out the rest of her videos because she seems to cover a lot of different science topics.

[–] realChem 14 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I've been watching a lot of her videos lately! I found the one on Gell-Mann amnesia to be really interesting and linked it here the other day; maybe a good one for a next watch if you haven't picked yet.

[–] Dee_Imaginarium 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Definitely, thanks for the suggestion! 😄

[–] RandomStickman@kbin.social 8 points 1 year ago

Her video on the most important material in science (spoiler: it's glass) is my favourite video of hers so far. Another one is on robots doesn't need to be in human form.

[–] Itty53@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Fun fact, Michael Crichton (that one) coined that, Gell-Mann amnesia after Murray Gell-Mann, who had nothing to do with it.

[–] androogee@midwest.social 9 points 1 year ago (8 children)

Less fun fact, Micheal Crichton was an active climate change denialist.

In one public debate his team argued so convincingly that the audience went from 57% believing climate change was a global crisis down to 46% after the debate.

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[–] Bishma@kbin.social 6 points 1 year ago

Same. I really like the way she presents ideas.

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[–] cthonctic@kbin.social 20 points 1 year ago

Angela is great! Love her passion and how she phrases things.
Sure the videos could usually be half as long without losing much in the way of her argument but I enjoy her personality so I don't mind.

[–] koncertejo@lemmy.ml 16 points 1 year ago

One of my favourite videos I've watched recently. The sheer skill to beat Binding of Issac and explain an entire lecture's worth of info about science communication is great.

[–] sudoreboot@mander.xyz 14 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I didn't watch this video but I suspect the sentiment is similar to Sabine's (I highly recommend her channel)

[–] AnarchoYeasty 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I love Sabines channel. Fantastic communicator of advanced ideas and you wouldn't necessarily expect it from the tone of her voice while she talks but her humor is top notch too

[–] feeltheglee 15 points 1 year ago

Then I regret to inform you that Sabine has some not so great views on trans issues

[–] On@kbin.social 14 points 1 year ago (3 children)

"Science communication is hard so I'm going to play a game while explaining science, cuz that's not distracting at all."

It just wasn't for me and I lost interest after a few minutes

I always had doubts about scientific theories on atomic particles and space but they were theory for a reason. Theory is what the word means, it is based on many assumptions. Like the big bang is a theory, It leads scientist to explore it from multiple angles through validation and verification (because science is hard). They are never put out as a fact. So I don't even know what point she's trying to make.

[–] zalack@kbin.social 51 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Theory in science generally means something much more stringent than it does in vernacular. From Wikipedia:

A scientific theory is an explanation of an aspect of the natural world and universe that can be (or a fortiori, that has been) repeatedly tested and corroborated in accordance with the scientific method, using accepted protocols of observation, measurement, and evaluation of results. Where possible, theories are tested under controlled conditions in an experiment.[1][2] In circumstances not amenable to experimental testing, theories are evaluated through principles of abductive reasoning. Established scientific theories have withstood rigorous scrutiny and embody scientific knowledge.

A scientific theory differs from a scientific fact or scientific law in that a theory explains "why" or "how": a fact is a simple, basic observation, whereas a law is a statement (often a mathematical equation) about a relationship between facts and/or other laws.

So when something is being put forward as "A Scientific Theory" it is meant to be taken as the best possible explanation we can make of why the universe is the way it is, backed by exhaustive tests using the best methods currently available to us.

In science, when something is just a theory in the way you mean, it's called a hypothesis.

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[–] bmaxv@noc.social 23 points 1 year ago

@On @interolivary the point she was making was that her job is harder because some people are actively dishonest and that creates distrust towards her entire profession, not just the individuals.

Big focus on the how it happened for this case of string theory.

[–] ram@lemmy.ca 15 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Like gravity is a theory. Or germs are a theory.

[–] StringTheory 13 points 1 year ago

I didn’t lie! Slander! Slander, I tell ya!

[–] tal@kbin.social 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

She seems to know more about both physics and Binding of Isaac than I do.

[–] 0xtero@kbin.social 11 points 1 year ago

Thanks for this, liked and subscribed immediately!

That was very interesting viewpoint and as a representative of the"Public" - some of the finer intricacies of academia have escaped me, but I largely agree with what she's saying.

[–] drspod@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago

I watched her video about silicon-based life recently and thought it was very well explained and super interesting. She's a good communicator.

[–] crank 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Im about 20 mins in. Seems interesting and knowledgeable but why the game? Is it a quirk of her or do ppl like to watch it? Is this what twitch did?

[–] JadziaMostral 14 points 1 year ago (5 children)

She made a comment about it early on. I think it's to distract her a little so she doesn't just spend the next hour talking in detail about maths.

[–] krogers 10 points 1 year ago

Yeah. I've seen her do other videos and she doesn't play a game. I think it might just have been a way to keep the tone conversational. Near the end, as she got the complex stuff, the game got harder and her presentation suffered a little. I'm hoping she doesn't stick with this format: not my favority.

[–] masterspace@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

That's what writing a script ahead of time is for.

Leave it to a physicist to think they need to resolve every problem in other fields.

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[–] SemioticStandard 9 points 1 year ago

I know fuck all about physics but that was interesting! She was great

Really? Lied to you?

[–] bmaxv@noc.social 6 points 1 year ago
[–] GlassHalfHopeful 6 points 1 year ago

I don't normal watch YouTube (especially for this long) and I especially don't watch people play games, but... Ive been wondering why I don't hear about String Theory any more... and I've owned Binding of Isaac and have yet to play it. So I thought, why not!?

I was actually surprised by how interesting I found this. Dr Collier communicated some things I've been curious about while also teaching me several new things. The game added a fun element, but I'm afraid it's probably going to remain dormant on Steam for a long while longer now. 😁

Anyway, thanks for the share.

[–] bird 5 points 1 year ago

I love BOI. What a fun combination!

[–] goosehorse@waveform.social 4 points 1 year ago

Interesting take, but super surprised to find it paired with an Isaac run!

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