this post was submitted on 12 Aug 2023
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Men's Liberation

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[–] NathanielThomas@lemmy.ca 116 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Interesting perspective. It would be really mind-blowing to see the other side of the gender, even though I have no interest in being trans.

One thing I will add to this article is that men are also viewed as little more than bank machines after divorce. People always have the utmost sympathy for any mother who is separated from her children, even if only for a few days. Movie plots can revolve around mothers finding their lost children and being reunited. But for men? We're only the providers, the ones who pay the child support.

I lost my kids (not legally, just boring old classic parental alienation) six years ago following the divorce. Nobody cares, because I'm just a man. Not even my own father cares. He happily continues to see his grandkids because he doesn't want to "take sides." None of my cousins or other parts of my family care either. So long as I'm paying my "support." And I can't complain about it on social media because I'm a man. I'm a stoic. Boys don't cry, remember?

The lack of emotional support for men mentioned in the article is another thing that really exacerbates divorces and leads to suicides. I do feel like if I were the type of person to contemplate suicide (I'm not), I would have definitely done it when my ex took my kids from me. And there would have been no male friends to pull me back from the edge. Those friendships are, to quote the author, superficial to a large degree, or even the ones that aren't are men who are now focused heavily on their own families and wives.

I mean, it's also true all the other stuff about the male privilege and feeling safe and the good things that come with being a man. But it's nice to see the perspective of how we lack emotional support and we're expected to grit our teeth and "walk it off."

[–] FatalValentine@lemmy.blahaj.zone 66 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (6 children)

I hope I'm not intruding on men's spaces here as a transwoman,

But after my transition that was one of the biggest, most drastic contrasts between the two binary gender's social dynamics. Men just don't get to talk about their feelings- whether it stems from homophobia or misogyny, men are generally seen as an island to themselves and if you display otherwise, it is seen as a weakness worthy of admonition and disrespect. There is still a societal expectation that men are supposed to be stoic, stable providers while women are increasingly allowed liberation. Hard fought, and rightly so but what's the point of "equality" if we don't lift everyone up to the same standards?

I have never felt more emotional support in my entire life than when I stepped into women's spaces, seen as a woman. This just isn't fair or right, regardless of the other privelages men may have. Justice is for everyone, not just minorities.

Yet, it is up to men to decide this. Yes, women can and should support you, but remember who has the most power to change these standards. Women didn't have to demand other women for suffrage, they had to demand it from men. It is the same here for emotional liberation.

*An edit for an addendum: I hope nobody reads this feeling that I'm blaming men, or being accusational. I want to clarify that I believe men do have the power to change this culture of emotional isolationism but it will require self-reflection, effort and a strong demand from oneself and other men to be willing to seek liberation- at the risk of what comes with shaking up the status quo.

[–] HappyMeatbag 15 points 1 year ago

I don’t see this as an intrusion. I see it as a relevant, valuable perspective. Thank you!

[–] spaduf@slrpnk.net 15 points 1 year ago

Your perspective is absolutely welcome here! I'm transfemme myself

[–] MrSqueezles@lemm.ee 9 points 1 year ago

Thank you for sharing. I haven't figured out the magic words to communicate this well. I worked at a company that proudly announced longer maternity care for newborns, an astounding (for the US) 6 months. Fathers got 2. I'm a dad and wasn't going to have any more kids, but some of us spoke up and suggested that dads deserve time with their children as well. It was explained that mothers have special connections with children (nursing) and are genetically (yuck) more loving caretakers. Their brains are wired for empathy, so they deserve more time. Remember when we all agreed it was awful to say men are better at logic and reasoning? Me neither because it was so long ago. How is this okay? And we wonder why far more women drop out of the workforce to become full time parents.

There's a theory that women quit to care for kids because they don't have enough support, so let's give them extra time off, extra health care benefits, recovery support, reinforcing stereotypes and gender roles. It's the most ass backward approach to what should be the goal to encourage husbands to take larger roles in families. When a man speaks up, he's part of the patriarchy, suppressing women's voices. Women need to be heard and supported, not mansplained. If anyone can suggest how to change the conversation without being labeled a bully while simultaneously being bullied, I would love to learn.

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[–] hoodlem@hoodlem.me 22 points 1 year ago

Nobody cares, because I'm just a man. Not even my own father cares. He happily continues to see his grandkids because he doesn't want to "take sides." None of my cousins or other parts of my family care either. So long as I'm paying my "support." And I can't complain about it on social media because I'm a man. I'm a stoic. Boys don't cry, remember?

That is the worst. So sorry you’re having to deal with that and not get support from the men in your life.

[–] the_itsb@midwest.social 20 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I'm sorry about the parental alienation you and your children have suffered, that's terrible for everyone.

Not even my own father cares. He happily continues to see his grandkids because he doesn't want to "take sides."

I'm confused why you wouldn't want him to see them. Isn't in your best interest to have people who love you and think you're a good dad in your kids' lives? Somebody to counter the alienating narrative in whatever ways they can?

[–] NathanielThomas@lemmy.ca 38 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Oh I'm fine with him seeing his grandkids but he has no empathy for my situation, considering it a dispute between myself and my ex. He even shares details from his trips to see them, as though that wouldn't hurt me to hear about it. His lack of empathy is the problem.

My mother, on the other hand, criticized my ex for the situation and was "cut off." So, despite the fact I'm sad that my mother can't see her grandkids because she, unlike my dad, did take sides, I feel like she had the empathy to stick up for her son and point out it the situation isn't right.

I will also mention my brother was "cut off" because of his close associations with me.

[–] Neato@kbin.social 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You have 0% custody? Otherwise your mother could see your kids whenever you have them, right?

[–] NathanielThomas@lemmy.ca 11 points 1 year ago

In "theory" or "legally" I have 50-50 custody. In practice, it's nearly impossible to enforce visitation with older children. My kids were 15 and 9 when we split. Immediately, the courts said enforcement on the 15-year-old was impossible. I spent a few years battling enforcement on the 9-year-old but she soon also became unenforceable. At a certain point you can't win if the kids also don't want to see you or make your visit a nightmare by passively resisting.

I was in the middle of one of these court battles when my daughter became anorexic and told the medical staff she didn't want me to visit her in hospital. She was about 13 and that was the last I saw her.

Legally, I am a 50-50 parent but in reality the only thing I'm entitled to do is pay their mother $1,000 a month.

[–] guyrocket@kbin.social 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I am very low contract with my mother and sister because they kept my ex as a friend after all her bullshit through the divorce. I put on a show for my son to have sort of normal family times at holidays, etc. but I mostly do not connect with them outside of time with my son. We are NOT friends.

So, internet stranger. I understand the crazy bullshit that comes with divorce for a man.

And it is amazing how quickly and thoroughly men are discarded after a divorce. Disposable indeed.

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[–] RagingNerdoholic@lemmy.ca 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

A story all too common. Someone I know mine got divorced a number of years ago. He's a fun, charming, kind, decent looking fellow in good shape for his age, and I can't imagine he did anything to deserve what happened. I don't know all the details of their divorce, but I know all but one of his children was poisoned against him by his (now ex) wife, and it's only because the one happened to be away long term at the time.

His ex has several advanced degrees and is more than capable of earning six figures. And yet, he was still ordered to pay her spousal support and a sizable chunk of his pension. The divorce and family court system is absolutely fucked for men and it's a small wonder so many of them contemplate drastic measures when their lives are ripped away from them.

Feminism gave women all of the same rights and privileges as men and then conveniently "forgot" to balance out all of the exclusive rights women get just for being women.

[–] verbalbotanics 30 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Feminism gave women all of the same rights and privileges as men

Feminism hasn't done that yet, we're nowhere near equal rights and opportunities for women and if you don't believe me, look at the gender balance in US government roles and who has the money and power.

Let's focus on dismantling patriarchy and the harm it creates for men as well.

[–] RagingNerdoholic@lemmy.ca 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Gender balance in government and business is not a proxy for equality.

Woman are not institutionally prevented from campaigning for office. If they're not voted in, that's just democracy.

Women are not institutionally prevented from climbing the corporate ladder. They largely prefer to have a more comfortable work/life balance.

But they are accepted into college 2:1 compared to men.

They do receive scholarships, educational, and career opportunities just for being women.

They do receive an egregiously unfair advantage in family and divorce courts.

Those are institutional.

[–] verbalbotanics 18 points 1 year ago (4 children)

When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

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[–] HappyMeatbag 58 points 1 year ago (4 children)

I’m a white, cis, heterosexual American male. I’m supposed to be privileged in every way, feel endlessly guilty over things I cannot control and try not to perpetuate, and never, ever dare suggest any kind of dissatisfaction with my situation.

I wouldn’t know how to express my feelings the way the author has. I’d feel like a misogynistic neckbeard, callous racist, or ungrateful whiner. If, somehow, I didn’t feel these things, someone would quickly, loudly, and condescendingly remind me that I should. They’d then be applauded for putting me in my place.

I can’t thank the author enough for writing this article.

[–] homoludens@feddit.de 24 points 1 year ago (10 children)

I’m supposed to be privileged in every way, feel endlessly guilty over things I cannot control and try not to perpetuate, and never, ever dare suggest any kind of dissatisfaction with my situation.

Why are you supposed to e.g. "feel endlessly guilty over things you cannot control"?

[–] USSMojave@startrek.website 31 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Yeah, just because we're encouraged to understand our privilege doesn't mean we're supposed to feel guilty about it. That doesn't serve anyone.

[–] Neato@kbin.social 18 points 1 year ago

"Check your privilege" has only ever meant that people want others to understand how situations and histories might be different. White guilt is a thing white people made up to make it about them.

[–] blanketswithsmallpox@kbin.social 13 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

It's generally just people not being able to accept being wrong about something. They take it as a personal insult and hit to their pride rather than just going oh? Verify? Oh shit, neat.

Instead it's I must be a piece of shit. Other people must not like me now. They must be talking about me...

Mother fucker nobody paying attention to you but MAYBE yourself and MAYBE your closest loved ones lol.

If you walk around in life with a chip on your back, everything becomes an insult though. It's the literal republican modus operandi primed mostly through religion via guilt.

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[–] guyrocket@kbin.social 44 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I am glad this perspective is being presented. I think ftm people have a unique view of how difficult it can be to be a man that throws light on a lot of men's issues.

I hope this person can present more along these lines. I think I could come up with hundreds of questions.

[–] Kit@lemmy.blahaj.zone 33 points 1 year ago (5 children)

I'm a trans guy who transitioned in the 2000s. I'd be happy to answer any questions you have on the unique perspective of men's issues from someone who spent 20 ish years as a woman.

[–] guyrocket@kbin.social 22 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Thank you, Kit.
Here are some questions:

  1. I don't know if women really understand how powerful testosterone is. What was/is your experience with it?
  2. What other biological differences did you notice? Were they temporary or permanent?
  3. How do you think men and women can better understand each other?
  4. What are some things you would change about women? And about men?
  5. What did you think about strip clubs when you were a woman? Did that opinion change as a man? Why and how?
  6. What did you think about women before transitioning and how did that change after you transitioned? And also about men.

I don't want to wear out my welcome so I'll stop there. No rush to answer, I'd prefer more complete answers to quick ones.

[–] Kit@lemmy.blahaj.zone 22 points 1 year ago (4 children)
  1. For me, testosterone primarily feels like the ability to focus and critically think - like my head was foggy before and is now clear. Everything seems to be logical, and my ability to troubleshoot complex issues is dramatically stronger when my T levels are good. Without T, everything feels extremely emotional and even minor things feel like they're high-stakes. That's not to say that I don't feel emotion with T, rather the emotions are more appropriate for the situation. I do find that I care less about people in general when on T - For example, when I see a stranger with a problem I don't feel like I have an obligation to help them whereas before I had an intristic need to help everyone around me.
  2. I had many biological changes, such as a change in body fat and muscle, significant facial/body hair, hair thinning - which is a miserable conversion in and of itself, period loss, and changes in my genitals that I would prefer not to discuss. All of these were euphoric to me, meaning they made me feel good and more like myself.
  3. I think that the best way for a man to understand a woman and vice-versa is to roleplay online as the opposite gender. For example, you may have noticed that people are more willing to help and harass you as a female character. Male characters mostly get ignored.
  4. I thought on this one for a while and couldn't come up with a strong response that doesn't just parrot the talking points of this community.
  5. I felt indifferent and uninterested in strip clubs before transitioning. I still feel the same way. They just seem like a bad time to me.
  6. Before transitioning I didn't understand gender dynamics at all. I thought it was a level playing field and had no grasp on the many courtesies and dangers that women face that men do not, and vice-versa. It's often frustrating to see people rag on men's or women's behavior/privilege/issues, because people rarely hit the mark on reality.

I did also want to mention that one thing blew my mind - The way that the dynamics of a room change when it's all men, versus when there's a single woman in the room. With all men, it seems like guys relax and suddenly don't feel the need to walk on eggshells. Social courtesies become significantly less important and men tend to communicate more directly. Next time you're in a room of all men and a woman walks in, keep an eye out for the subtle differences in how men behave.

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[–] Aagje_D_Vogel@feddit.nl 27 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This story reminds me of an ex girlfriend that wanted me to open up. So I did. She left me after that. The end result was good though, as it made me realize I needed some professional mental assistance.

[–] GrayBackgroundMusic@lemm.ee 12 points 1 year ago

That's my experience, too. Most of the times I've opened up to a girlfriend, it's turned them off. They thought they wanted me to, but they regretted it, which made me regret it. Either that or they later used it to manipulate me. So I just stopped.

[–] gapbetweenus@feddit.de 24 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Men started treating me like their guy friends, which was exactly what I wanted. What I didn't know is that male friendships aren't as deep.

That is also my experience - never could emotionally open or connect to my male friends. While (from time where I learned it) not having the same problem with women in relationships or friendship. I feel always a bit on guard with other men, always a bit performing. But at the same time I never made an negative experience with opening up being emotionally vulnerable.

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[–] Rodeo@lemmy.ca 23 points 1 year ago (10 children)

Am I only the only one who thinks comes off like "men arent like women, and therefore broken"?

Not having to spend an hour discussing my feelings is actually one of the things I like about my friendships. I don't want long deep hugs, they make me uncomfortable. And I definitely don't want someone opening up to me about their life struggles. That's not the kind of friendship I like or want.

I guess that makes me broken!

[–] PaupersSerenade 32 points 1 year ago (4 children)

I wouldn't call you broken, just as I wouldn't call an asexual broken. I do think there are men out there who wish they could be more vulnerable though, and if the current culture stops or hinders that I think they deserve to say something too.

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[–] Alto@kbin.social 23 points 1 year ago

And it's all perfectly fine to not want that.

The issue is there is a heavy expectation for all men to be like that. Many of us, me included, are not at all, and are often ridiculed for it.

[–] HappyMeatbag 23 points 1 year ago (7 children)

Not quite. To me, it’s more like “men don’t even have the option of building relationships like women do, and that’s not healthy. Society is broken.”

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[–] Smk@lemmy.ca 20 points 1 year ago (2 children)

It's very interesting to have the view of a women that has transitioned to a men on the feeling side of things. I wonder how the transition is actually affecting his current relationship.

My experience as a man does look like what he talks about however, it's not as crazy as he is saying. His depiction of manhood feels almost satire to me. Almost all of my interaction with men, I feel safe enough to talk about my problems, my feelings and my opinions on things, both personal or not.

Although, I am me and I do not represent all other men, It's not untrue that men are lead to believe that they must be the one to shut up and provide for their community/family. Shut up and die for your family, you country. Shut up and do what you have to do. If you really do that, I think you just end up lonely, sad and probably really suicidal.

[–] GrayBackgroundMusic@lemm.ee 9 points 1 year ago

it's not as crazy as he is saying. His depiction of manhood feels almost satire to me. Almost all of my interaction with men, I feel safe enough to talk about my problems, my feelings and my opinions on things, both personal or not.

It's spot on for me. 9/10 times I open up to other men, it's either diminished, insulted, or ignored. I count 4 friends who've actually listened to me. 1 ghosted me some time later. 1 listened rarely, only after I listened to him for hours. The other 2 are true chads and I wish life hadn't separated us.

When I open up to women, it's either insulted or saved and later used against me as manipulation.

I just don't anymore. Only people I talk to are therapists.

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[–] HawlSera@lemm.ee 16 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I'm mtf, being a woman made my life much much easier

[–] stebo02@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

I knew women were the superior gender all along

[–] HawlSera@lemm.ee 16 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Not what I meant, I mean small things like before when I was socially awkward, people thought I was some kind of creeper... Now people just think I'm cute.

[–] stebo02@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 1 year ago

I know it's not what you meant, I said it as a joke

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[–] HelixDab2@lemm.ee 14 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I believe that's why the suicide rate in men is so much higher. I recently saw that men are four times more likely to commit suicide than women.

That's accurate, but doesn't convey they entire picture accurately.

Women attempt suicide at a significantly higher rate than men. The ways women tend to attempt suicide are the ways that are least likely to leave a significant mess; overdosing, hanging, drowning, cutting wrists in a bathtub, etc. Men that attempt suicide are more likely to use methods with a high probability of success, like jumping or firearms. At one time, women's incomplete attempts were deemed to be a "cry for help" rather sincere suicide attempts, but this is not correct.

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[–] Nelots@lemm.ee 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The comments at the bottom of the article though... I really hate people sometimes.

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[–] ragepaw@lemmy.ca 12 points 1 year ago

As a minor example supporting a lot of what's in that article, my wife went out to hang with a friend of hers, and I hung out with a buddy for a couple of hours. When she came home she asked me how he is, and I said, "I don't know, I didn't ask". She seemed shocked and can't understand why I say we don't have those kinds of conversations.

[–] Phen@lemmy.eco.br 12 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I still get sad at the surprise women have when I move before they do

Is this actually a thing? I've always moved away from everyone's path and never noticed anyone feeling surprised by that. And from every man I've ever walked with, I can only remember one who I noticed didn't make room for other people.

[–] threadloose@midwest.social 18 points 1 year ago

Oh, it's totally a thing. I'm a woman and short, so I'm below the eye line of most men, and I've had men plow right over me on crowded sidewalks or at events. Most men expect the woman to yield in that situation and they'll get annoyed if you don't. It actually is surprising when a man moves out of the way, though I don't know if it shows on my face.

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