this post was submitted on 28 Nov 2024
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Science Memes

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[–] drail@fedia.io 61 points 3 months ago (3 children)

Here goes:

During my dissertation, I was lookig for information on the emissiom of 172nm scintillation light in mixtures of gaseous Xe and CO2 (95:5% - 98:2%), with results being difficult to come by. I found a collaborator who had tested this at lower CO2 concentrations (0-0.5%), but nothing else, no predictions or generalizable applications. Not knowing the optimal search engine terms or what textbook to look in for rules governing gaseous light emission, I ended up looking in fluorescence chemistry papers (my previous field of study) which had something called the Stern-Volmer relation for different concentrations of quenchant in a fluorescent solution. I figured gas scintillation queching was probably similar to liquid fluorescence quenching, but the standard relation didn't quite fit below 10% additive.

I dug around more and found a modification of this relation for diffusion-limited quenching of fluorescent solutions (the same limitation imposed in gas mixtures, quenching due to random Brownian collisions) that employed an exponential term, allowing for a smoother curve down to low additive concentrations. This perfectly matched the available data and allowed me to model the predicted behavior. I discussed this with the one member of my committee who was available, an organic chemist (my PI was on vacation, everyone else was sick, and my dissertation defense was in 2 weeks). He said my reasoning and math for using this formula made sense and gave me a thumbs up to include this analysis. When my PI came back from holiday, he asked me why I didn't use some equation generally used in the field, or even just a generic exponential fit. I was ignorant of his suggestion, but it provided the same general formulation as Stern-Volmer, though Stern-Volmer was more rigorously derived mathematically.

Mixing fields is super cool and can allow a much deeper understanding of the underlying principles, as opposed to limiting yourself to one branch of science. While my PI's recommendation would have given approximately the same answer, understanding and applying Stern-Volmer allowed me to really dig at the principles at play and generate a more accurate and in-depth model, which I managed to write up and defend at the 11th hour.

[–] pythonoob@programming.dev 15 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I understood so little of this lol. But good job.

[–] drail@fedia.io 14 points 3 months ago (1 children)

The assignment was to infodump, so I will take that as a compliment. I was aiming for detailed and hyperspecific.

[–] pythonoob@programming.dev 5 points 3 months ago

You achieved it

[–] jjagaimo@lemmy.ca 6 points 3 months ago (1 children)
[–] drail@fedia.io 8 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I am now Dr. Drail, so it went well! This was back in August, so I am still in recovery mode while I job search.

[–] jjagaimo@lemmy.ca 4 points 3 months ago

Congrats and good luck on the hunt

[–] chevy9294@monero.town 1 points 3 months ago

Interesting, yet another proof that math is useful!

[–] MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca 21 points 3 months ago (6 children)

Not a scientist. I have a litany of complex topics that I just can't really talk to anyone about. I'm a big computer networking nerd, and once upon a time, when I didn't know what I didn't know, I was curious what computer networking really entailed... It seemed dead simple, you connect things to a switch, connect that switch to the internet router, not much more.

Then I learned about VLANs, which are cool but it seemed like unnecessary complexity. Then I learned about Routing and L3 switching, and routing protocols and..... Holy shit, how deep is this?

Now-a-days, I want to have conversations about the merits of one routing protocol over another in various contexts, and see/build a spine and leaf network infrastructure that's nearly infinitely scalable.

I want to explore the nuance of IP unnumbered routing. I can't find anyone who will chat about it on a level that's close to my understanding, either someone knows way more than I do, or they know way less.

IP unnumbered routing is a way of connecting devices without setting an IP on the interface that is being routed to/from. The other end uses the routing protocol on top of layer 2, and while the two might have a router ID, often in the form of an IP address, the interface that is connecting the two has no IP. It's basically advanced point to point protocol (PPP) that breaks away from traditional TCP/IP routing in ways that people who have never used anything besides TCP/IP can't really comprehend. The two "IP addresses" (actually router IDs) in play can have nothing in common. Traditional TCP/IP requires that two IPs share a subnet. In routing, this is typically a /30 for IPv4, and the two IPs are adjacent to eachother, eg, 10.254.123.1 and 10.254.123.2 IP unnumbered can have 10.254.123.2 talking directly with 172.30.88.207, with no layer 3 interfaces in-between.

It's really fascinating and interesting and I've been trying to find a good model or guide to help me learn this better, but I keep ending up at dead ends, and I have nobody to talk to about it.

[–] kantor@lemmy.ml 5 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Did my fair share of networking back in the day, but never heard of IP unnumbered. I was curious about the same idea back in the day and it is possible, but I haven't much seen anyone doing it for realsies. If you have any good longreads/vids on the topic, it'd be much appreciated.

[–] MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca 1 points 3 months ago

I'll look at my resources and see what I can dig up. No promises, but the concepts are simple as long as you can separate yourself from the TCP/IP restrictions on two things needing to be in a subnet, and the idea that NAT is something that needs to happen.

Honestly, I've seen so many people get hung up on the fact that NAT isn't universal, or necessary.

[–] ToucheGoodSir@lemy.lol 4 points 3 months ago (3 children)

Should shoot me a DM, have been studying for my CCNP and do want more networking buddies to potentially socialize with.

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[–] fossilesque@mander.xyz 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I need some help with networking and eventually getting an organisation website online; if you want to geek out a bit, please send me a dm. :)

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[–] KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 3 months ago (2 children)

Now-a-days, I want to have conversations about the merits of one routing protocol over another in various contexts, and see/build a spine and leaf network infrastructure that’s nearly infinitely scalable.

bro i just want screensharing that isn't using the hell that is webrtc.

How hard is it to send video packets over IP, it can't be that difficult. Half the job is already done, and i can't imagine building a reliable networking protocol, even if you had to do it from scratch would be particularly hard.

everything is webrtc, it always has been.

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[–] iknowitwheniseeit@lemmynsfw.com 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I'm not sure that I understand the benefit of "unnumbered" routing. It sounds like there are numbers (well, "identifiers"), just not IP addresses.

It's hard to know without more context, but you can use things like IPv6 multicast to manage reachability. This will let you set arbitrary sets of endpoints that talk to each other, and you can still us IP-based tools to debug connectivity, measure performance, and so on.

[–] MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

The benefits are pretty simple but have broader implications than what would be apparent on the surface.

Let me lay down a little ground work first. Traditionally with routing protocols you need to implement a /30 between interfaces on the connected devices before routing will come up. Usually that requires the use of IPAM, and a lot of record keeping to ensure nothing overlaps.

So let's take the example of a relatively simple spine and leaf topology. A leaf switch dies, or otherwise needs replacing. You set up the new leaf with a template, which contains pretty much all the routing commands you'll need, and all of your overlay transport, VLAN definitions, and whatever. After that, you need to program the uplink interfaces to the spine(s) - hopefully at least two - in order to get it online.

If you're doing a replacement because a switch died, looking up the interface IP assignments for the leaf is going to take a lot of time, nevermind programming the addresses, and all the possible fat finger typos that could happen, just to get the switch communicating in your underlay (and to your management systems).

In small networks, not a big deal, you're dealing with maybe a dozen such devices at most, but in large scale provider, datacenter, or hyperscale networks with literally hundreds of racks, each with a top-of-rack leaf switch, good luck.

Enter IP unnumbered. Same situation. You can pre-prepare any standby switches with unique loopback IPs in the routing system, and mark them as used in the IPAM for a standby device. A failure happens, you grab a standby switch and head to the rack. Next you yank all of the port connections out and plug them into the standby switch and power it up ASAP. Without touching the config at all, it grabs the routing and comes online, and the NOC can simply apply the port config for that rack on that switch from their management console.

This can easily cut repair time in half or better.

Any switch can be moved anywhere in the enjoyment and it will come online right away.

[–] iknowitwheniseeit@lemmynsfw.com 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

So this isn't about routing really, rather about optimizing standby routers for recovery.

A few things make me nervous.

First, the description of the work involved seems to imply that your setup really needs more automated tooling. Nontrivial, but you've already mentioned typos, and that this is for large operations.

Second, using IPv4 for your management network is wasteful and needlessly complicated. Even if your customer traffic is all IPv4, there's really no reason to use legacy protocols for internal routing.

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[–] Strykker@programming.dev 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Sounds like you should look at IS-IS protocol if you haven't as that's very close to the ip unnumbered routing you were talking about. Though isis is usually deployed with its on the interface of each device, it doesn't have to be AFAIK.

[–] MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca 1 points 3 months ago

I recently saw a post about Babel getting up unnumbered, and AFAIK OSPF and IS-IS have both had it for a while.

Implementations are spotty on support of unnumbered, there's still quite a few, mostly older OSPF devices that require an IP interface to communicate with another device for OSPF.

I've been trying to get a functional IP unnumbered lab up and running but there's a lot of unknown-unknowns for me still... At least when it comes to implementation.

Of course, a router ID is still a requirement, foreign devices still need a way to uniquely identify what device they're talking to.

Maybe I should try the lab with IS-IS, but I know less about IS-IS than I do about OSPF at the moment. I should change that.

[–] KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com 19 points 3 months ago (2 children)

science makes me have faith in science.

Science is unironically one of the only things i ever trust because truth prevails, always...

[–] jol@discuss.tchncs.de 20 points 3 months ago

Science research on the one hand is cursed to follow the money.

[–] justme@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 3 months ago (2 children)

Research is based on the so-called scientific method (therefore science) and that is something you can't proof, just belief in. But it's the best we have with extraordinary amount of evidence to back it up.

[–] infinite_ass@leminal.space 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

There was this guy who spent his whole life in rural Arizona. All evidence indicated that the world is made of sand.

Never discount errors of perspective.

If you consider something that all scientists do then you might see a vast shared error.

[–] justme@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 3 months ago (1 children)

It was evident that the world was bigger than what the guy saw, he was just not checking (lazy or insatiable or whatever) what's further. There is the difference.

[–] infinite_ass@leminal.space 1 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

This is why we put walls around our laboratories.

[–] Sas 1 points 3 months ago

To form a solid base for the giant telescopes we put on them so we don't just see our small horizon.

using the scientific method to demonstrate that the scientific method is the most effective method of science is definitely one of the moments of all time, for science.

[–] meep_launcher@lemm.ee 19 points 3 months ago (2 children)

At first I read "have you ever met a single scientist?" As in "don't you know they're all fuckin?"

[–] Naich@lemmings.world 17 points 3 months ago (1 children)

We're all fucking all right. We are all fucking with the laws of nature. You like it when we stop your atoms moving and shine a laser at you, don't you, you dirty filthy condensate?

[–] SkaveRat@discuss.tchncs.de 1 points 3 months ago

Laser bondage. Kinky

[–] Slovene@feddit.nl 5 points 3 months ago

Meet single scientists in your area. Click here.

[–] zephorah@lemm.ee 13 points 3 months ago

This is so true, and I can’t even type that without a severe eyeroll of agreement.

I think that’s why some people wax poetic on Reddit or Lemmy with very little provocation. Finally…a captive audience that might read this info, even if they’re just passing time on the shitter…

[–] Zink@programming.dev 8 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Gotta love when the conspiracy is so stupid that it’s the people who dedicated their lives to building and spreading human knowledge are the ones keeping the knowledge away from Joe public.

You know how Trump has been called the poor person’s idea of a rich person? I’m trying to think of the caricature they use for “scientist” in their minds. Maybe a woke Joe Rogan?

[–] DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 3 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I'm pretty sure it's just a vague conglomeration of Hollywood "scientists."

[–] meyotch@slrpnk.net 2 points 3 months ago

It averages out to Charlie Day in Pacific Rim, combined with Charlie Day from It’s Always Sunny explaining his conspiracy.

[–] humanspiral@lemmy.ca 8 points 3 months ago

Fun fact about Christmas. In next 5 years tops, the north pole will completely melt in summer thereby drowning every last motherfucker that works and lives there!

[–] skillissuer@discuss.tchncs.de 7 points 3 months ago (2 children)

currently questioning my sanity over whether key compound of my thesis did just did a ice-nine or not (it's a real thing, but not for water)

[–] Incandemon@lemmy.ca 3 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Wow, that was an interesting read. Thanks for sharing!

[–] skillissuer@discuss.tchncs.de 6 points 3 months ago (1 children)

it just made three months of my work useless but np

[–] skillissuer@discuss.tchncs.de 3 points 3 months ago

fully channeling energy of this fake tweet rn

i need to howl. that stuff is a catalyst and i need it to stay dissolved, but now it won't. depending on how badly things will go, it might be impossible for everyone forever to replicate my old results

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[–] _____@lemm.ee 5 points 3 months ago (1 children)

maybe this wording works on a certain kind of voter because of the "fuck you I got mine" attitude, they probably think that if they were the scientist they would reap the benefits for themselves

[–] KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 3 months ago (1 children)

benefits of what, grant money you can't get anymore because there's no more federal funding? Oops.

[–] _____@lemm.ee 7 points 3 months ago (1 children)

they wouldn't know about grants or how underpaid academics are in general, it's just a projection

thats part of the joke, unfortunately.

[–] jabathekek@sopuli.xyz 5 points 3 months ago

Too tired from exams, soz.

[–] Jimmycrackcrack@lemmy.ml 3 points 3 months ago

It's a secret rouse so you won't suspect the stuff that they don't tell you and get together every few months to co-ordinate keeping under wraps.

[–] Guilherme@lemm.ee 2 points 3 months ago

I browse Windy but don't rely on any of those 4 weather forecasting models: I take the median of predicted temperatures and rainfalls instead. Also, I predict rain only if the median exceeds 1mm, and if it's below that threshold but at least 3 models predict (some) rainfall I predict drizzle. Which is the same approach I had at my previous job, using data of doubtful quality to adjust Holt-Winters and Box-Jenkins models in order to forecast drug sales for Big Pharma.

Kaggle by the way began to demand users engaged on modelling competitions to make PDFs explaining their methodologies after learning some cheaters would just combine results from other competitors.

P.S. - Don't average results from different models unless you are really, really sure of what you're doing. Many times the models take turns on which one will output garbage, and you don't want garbage contaminating your average. By switching to median you avoid the crap they sometimes spit altogether - not to mention it's so simple you don't even need to write numbers on paper or use a pocket calculator.

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