A place for majestic STEMLORD peacocking, as well as memes about the realities of working in a lab.
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This is a science community. We use the Dawkins definition of meme.
And the study was even proven wrong in the 17th century. A finite amount of monkeys already produced Shakespeare in a finite amount of time; it took roughly 55 million years.
Source: Primates show up in the fossil records, dating to roughly 55mill years. And Shakespeare's complete works were most likely completed by William Shakespeare, a famous decendant of said primates.
Primates ≠ monkeys
If baboons and macaques are monkeys, and if howlermonkeys and spidermonkeys are monkeys, humans MUST be monkeys.
Because they can ONLY both be monkeys if their common ancestor was also a monkey and we share that very same common ancestor. In fact we are closer related to macaques and baboons than to spidermonkeys, which means we share a more recent common ancestor with old world monkeys than both us and the other old world monkeys share with the new world monkeys.
Cladistically, you can not outgrow your ancestry.
Humans are apes, apes are a subgroup of monkeys, monkeys are a subgroub of primates.
Monkeys are specifically non-ape simians.
If you go back far enough they do.
As I pointed out elsewhere about this: it also is based entirely on probability, like cracking encryption. It could take longer than the universe will be around. But there's also the possibility they write Hamlet within a year because they got lucky.
If the monkeys were truly infinite would time even matter? For any set of monkeys that could write Hamlet within a year there's an infinite number of duplicate sets, so they could do as much writing in one day as the original set would do over the age of the universe.
You don't get to pick and choose! You get infinite monkeys. What's all this about duplicate sets? Sounds like somebody is trying to bring in a ringer! That's cheatin!
The point is there's no statistical difference between rolling one die an infinite number of times, rolling an infinite number of dice once, and rolling an infinite number of dice an infinite number of times.
My comment was made in jest, I don't actually believe this person was trying to "cheat" on the thought experiment by selecting only smart monkeys lol.
Considering that there are an infinite number of potential arrangements of keystrokes that aren't Hamlet? I'm honestly not fully convinced that you'd necessarily get Hamlet to begin with, let alone in a finite amount of time. Could you? Sure. But an infinite set minus an infinite number of possibilities still leaves an infinite number of possibilities. Any or all of which could not be Hamlet.
There are an infinite number of values between 1 and 2, but none of them are 3.
There aren't an infinite arrangements of keystrokes that are the length of Hamlet and aren't Hamlet. Hamlet is 191,726 characters long, it's like guessing a password.
44 keys on a typewriter, 191726 characters, makes 44^191726 or about 4.054 × 10^315094 combinations.
You're shifting the goalposts, and that still doesn't work.
An infinite number of monkeys typing for an infinite length of time doesn't necessitate that they stop once they reach 191,726 characters and then start over again. It also doesn't necessitate that they never repeat a pattern of characters. In fact, it's incredibly likely that they repeat more or less the same patterns more often than not. They're probably going to repeatedly press keys that are in proximity to one another while moving around the keyboard. Things like: ";ml9o fklibhuasdfbuklghaol;jios9 fdlhnikuasdf".
If you're measuring whether or not eventually you'll produce Hamlet by typing out every single possible permutation of 191,726 characters on a keyboard, well.. yeah, of course you will. But infinite monkeys aren't a grid search system for combinations of keystrokes, they're monkeys mashing the keys without knowing what they mean or in all likelihood what a typewriter or computer is.
You want monkeys on keyboards? You're mostly going to get gibberish.
If you put a bunch of yarn in a room with some high-powered rotating fans, are they eventually going to produce a sweater? Probably not. You're just going to have a bunch of tangled yarn. Sweaters require a consistent repetition of a non-random pattern of movement. Alter that pattern only a handful of times and you won't have a sweater even if you do manage to stumble across some version of that pattern accidentally.
Is there a non-zero chance? Eh.. maybe? But there's no reason to assume that it'll actually happen given any amount of time unless someone comes along who knows how to make a sweater and does so.
With monkeys and keyboards you'd be lucky to get a few lines of anything resembling English in iambic pentameter.
I think you're the one who is moving the goalposts. There's no requirement for the monkeys to submit their output, the test is whether the text of Hamlet is among their key presses. As long as there is a nonzero chance, then there is a 100% chance it would appear in an infinite system. Any non-zero probability times infinity has a 100% chance of occuring eventually.
The monkeys mostly produce gibberish, that's the vast majority of the potential outputs, but among that massive number is also the full text of Hamlet.
I mean it seems like you're just kind of asserting that it will be there. Just repeating it doesn't make it more true.
But given infinite time, could OP spell "infinity" correctly?
Well if you give them infintiny time... maybe.
Them saying that is like me saying Bizmuth isn't radioactive because it's half-life is many, many times longer than even the most conservative estimates for the heat-death of the universe.
In finite time that's effectively true, because the universe itself would decay before a block of bizmuth lost any significant weight - but it isn't physically true, because with infinite time a block of bizmuth left completely alone would evaporate away via alpha decay.
And that's the point of infinite time - to let you throw away time and probabilities as obstacles and strictly focus on whether something could physically happen, rather than the odds of it occurring.
Good glad to hear monkeys will produce their own unique literature instead of copying the classics.
Huh. I'd never thought of it like that, but now that you mention it with an infinite number of monkeys one of them will eventually write an entire literary canon of plays that blow that loser Shakespeare out of the water.
That research is worst type of reddit ACKCHYUALLY taken to academia
I fear the plague of reddit brainrot will soon make even research papers plain insufferable. Would you want to have moderator of 11 subreddits and holder of top 1% commenters achievement in your research group?
infinite monkey theorem relies on the assumption that infinite banana theorem is valid
Hell, an actually infinite amount of monkeys would produce the complete works of Shakespeare plus some originals in the same style in the exact amount of time it took to literally press the necessary buttons.
Just thinking at a high level, an infinite number of monkies should hypothetically almost instantly produce Shakespeare (or at least as quickly as they can type)
Conversely, 1 monkey would eventually produce it given infinity time.
So as weird as it sounds not all infinities are equal. For example there is an infinite set of odd numbers. That set will never include the number 2 though.
Two is the loneliest number?
OK but what if we had one monkey typing away for every real number between zero and one?
But monkeys never ask questions.
Science has yet to determine if monkeys would be able to type "wherefore art thou Romeo?"
This thread could well have been written by an infinite amount of monkeys, too.
Thoiei0z ao;qjlk a 2897n3 eiie??! hoenwk a ;jihiwe a wiiien theohg rosebud oiwoi;qne i93823hnn banana
Nah, internet commenters are definitely crows.
Ð ſtu̇dı ƿėz t ſı ƿėt tuımfreım Shakespeare kᵫd huıpėþetikėlı imṙdj ovṙ. Ð rizu̇ltſ ſu̇djeſt ðæt enı givin mu̇nkı ƿᵫd nıd ė greıtṙ ėmaunt v tuım ðæn ðeıṙ ƿᵫd bı u̇ntil hıt deþ t prėduſ ıvin ė rekėgnuızėbėl ėmaunt v Shakespeare.
spoiler
The study was to see what timeframe shakespeare could hypothetical emerge over. The results suggest that any given monkey would need a greater amount of time than there would be until heat death to produce ecen a recognizeable amount of Shakespeare.
Bro. I like the idea of introducing non-latin characters into the English alphabet, but holy shit that's basically unreadable lmao.
English is long overdue for a spelling reform, but just taking all fancy looking characters from other germanic languages is not the way
ſ z ð onlı ƿėn frėm ėnėðṙ djṙmænik leıŋgwidj, æ İURK, it hæz bin Yuzd i Iŋglic.
spoiler
ſ is the only one from another germanic language, and IIRC, it has been used in English.
this was fun, thanks
Next question, would Shakespeare appear in the Library of Babel?
They already have, we evolved from a species you could colloquially refer to as monkeys. The ancestors of those monkeys went on to write Shakespeare
I welcome the visual once BBC realises the limit as k goes from 0 to pos infinity, of sum n=0 to k, for (1 / (1 + n)) actually converges and has a real solution.
I once heard that monkeys will just go to the typewriter, tipe the same letter a few times and leave. Doesn't sound like Shakespeare to me
🤣
