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"Bethesda covers its arse in anticipation of a bunch of terminally online American teenagers who just learnt the word 'nazi' and would use it to describe a fuckin nun if it made them feel a bit morally superior for ten seconds"
I've heard plenty of people try to say WOLFENSTEIN glorifies nazis
I've had one idiot tell me ANY media that paints them as competent or successful is glorifying them. And setting anything in a world where they succeeded and progressed technologically instead of collapsing is basically saying Hitler's world view is valid.
I still don't know how to respond to that beyond "if you think the nazis were incompetent you don't know history, and if you think showing a future where fascism took hold is unrealistic I have some bad news for you"
It's fantasy, and specifically a fantasy in which you get to go on a massive killing spree against some of the worst people in history, how you can somehow pull "this game is making these guys look good" from that, I'm not sure.
I’ve had one idiot tell me ANY media that paints them as competent or successful is glorifying them. And setting anything in a world where they succeeded and progressed technologically instead of collapsing is basically saying Hitler’s world view is valid.
And people still wonder why I pick so much on the wishful thinking fallacy... I mean, that's basically it, right? "Nazi are morally bad, I hate them, thus they must be incompetent". And if you correctly highlight that this is fucking stupid, you'll get some kid saying stuff like "I dun understand, why are you defending Nazi?".
You're misunderstanding the argument, but that's just the nature of brief forum exchanges.
Think of it as a continuous depiction of the Nazis as hyper-competent or full of geniuses unintentionally playing into the supremacy narrative, even when Joe Everyman is gunning them down. I don't agree that Wolfenstein is pro-Nazi but it is a factor in public perception that creators need to consider when repeated in a hundred different games or movies.
Even just repeating things like "At least Mussolini made the trains run on time" plays into it, especially when it's a lie, just like the Wunderwaffe programs or the Nazi "miraculous economic recovery" which was just making people work longer hours and deficit spending.
I'm not. We're talking about different things.
Backtrack to Miles O'Brien's comment. They're clearly talking about individual depictions, and my comment focuses on that. To assume that people with shitty worldviews must be necessarily incompetent is wishful thinking.
The reason why the Nazi worldview is invalid has jack shit to do with efficiency or competence, it's as simple as "that worldview oppresses the lives of innocent people into living hells".
In the meantime you're talking about the social impact of continuous, somewhat consistent-ish depictions of the Nazi in media, not individual depictions. What you're saying is valid but another can of worms.
Even just repeating things like “At least Mussolini made the trains run on time” plays into it, especially when it’s a lie, just like the Wunderwaffe programs or the Nazi “miraculous economic recovery” which was just making people work longer hours and deficit spending.
Note that, if people are less eager to play along that fallacy, this sort of argument doesn't roll any more. Suddenly if Merdolini made the trains run on time or not doesn't matter, and can be safely called out as a distraction. Just like the Nazi economic recovery.
If they think that, they may have a problem with what they consider glorified. They may want to avoid recognizing parallels that are far more personal to them.
If they didn't have at least a few competent nazis, they wouldn't have been such a threat; WW2 would be over in a month. I'm sure there were even competent Talibans and North Koreans.
I take your point but I wouldn't class nuns as the ideal opposing example to Nazis, either.
EDIT: And yes, I know I'm doing the thing.
Putting the "God" in Godwin's law
No way....what about wolfenstein??
Whaaa Don't you remember the scene where they said nazi made things better? /s https://youtu.be/3tJRVRx66GI?sT6VlEsv8uESpiuK
Damn I gotta play that one it looks fucking dope
It's worth it for the story alone (both main games since the reboot). Such a wild collection of outrageous twists and turns, but with characters that you actually care about. They managed to write a main protagonist who - in between eviscerating Nazi mechas and blowing up secret bases while using improbable tech - is actually an emotionally vulnerable human being. This is such a stroke of genius that suddenly makes the entire scenario so much more believable and the story so much more impactful, because he and many of the other characters feel like real human beings, despite the almost exuberant embracing of clichés (only to then tear them up). It's still campy as all hell, but it somehow works. I don't think I've ever seen games juggle so many different balls without dropping any of them. Even if you don't care about any of that, the shooting alone is second only to the recent DOOM reboots.
Murder?
I think not. Murder is a crime. And it's bad. (crime doesn't necessarily mean bad, see Robin Hood for more details)
Nazis don't count, all you're doing is cleaning up the trash.
You can't murder a nazi. You can certainly kill them though.
It's an important distinction, in my opinion.
The scariest thing about Nazis is that they're human and even pretty smart sometimes. To reiterate what others are saying: dehumanization leaves you in a blind spot for the humans around you who can silently undergo vast transformations from people you thought you loved into Nazis. They throw away their humanity yes, but they had to be human to throw it away. Dehumanization is also how the process of becoming a Nazi starts. Don't even mirror it in jest, try on radical empathy and face the truth: humans are horrifically complex. Nazis are unfortunately humans.
Nazis are incredibly mechanical honestly. They lose empathy and then others become mearly disposable objects. You might commit murder just like you would throw away a plastic bag. There is a totally absence of care which leads you to inflict terrible things to others.
I also doubt how many actual Nazis there are. It is often thrown around which leads it to lose the horrible meaning. I've seen people shout Nazis over much less deadly things. Don't confuse systematic mass murder with someone having a questionable character. They can be a terrible human but they haven't committed the level of crimes as mass murder of millions. The level of death and suffering caused by the holocaust is not a joke and certainty not something to use when your upset.
Sorry for the rant I just needed to get that off my chest. I'm not really addressing anyone in particular.
Why can i not murder a nazi? A murder is the deliberate ending of someone's life. Why is that not applicable to Nazis?
Murder is a crime. And it’s bad. (crime doesn’t necessarily mean bad, see Robin Hood for more details)
Nazis don’t count, all you’re doing is cleaning up the trash.
Justifying the murder of someone by dehumanizing them is exactly what the nazis did. It's what Israel is doing in Gaza, etc., calling everyone Hamas and dehumanizing them. Nazis may be terrible people who need to be fought against and whose ideology needs to be stopped, but it's never good to start dehumanizing groups of people over any criteria. All that said I love playing Wolfenstein and Indiana Jones games and killing hordes of nazis.
"> Murder is a crime. And it’s bad. (crime doesn’t necessarily mean bad, see Adolf Hitler for more details)
Jews don’t count, all you’re doing is cleaning up the trash."
🤔
[off topic]
One of the biggest mind fuck novels I ever read was "The Iron Dream' by Norman Spinrad.
On one level it's a 'hero's journey' story about an exiled prince who returns to his homeland and defeats a bunch of evil mind controlling wizards. Lots of excitement and adventure and terrific battles.
The fucked up part is that it's the last novel Adolph Hitler wrote after migrating to America in 1921.
Hitler was a popular illustrator who eventually felt confident enough to start writing in English. He was a popular figure at conventions and had a huge fandom.
https://bookshop.org/p/books/the-iron-dream-norman-spinrad/7751155?ean=9781490439457
I'm very confused, but I have to go into work. Can someone summarize for my lazy ass what the fuck is going on here?
You picked the wrong guy to ask.
Read the wikipedia article. It makes more sense but still a mindfuck
Germany be like, "Nazi symbols, NEIN!", showing it is totally not missing the point, specially given whom they support.
There are no more restrictions on Nazi symbols in videogames, except that glorifying Nazism remains illegal regardless of the medium, of course.
Don't tell them about speeding
What