this post was submitted on 12 May 2024
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[–] bjoern_tantau@swg-empire.de 50 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Something tells me Karl Marx wouldn't like these things either.

[–] imnotfromkaliningrad@lemmy.ml 15 points 4 months ago

vaushites pulling shit out of their ass instance 9001

[–] tatterdemalion@programming.dev 34 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (3 children)

DPRK

You've immediately lost credibility.

[–] CyberEgg@discuss.tchncs.de 24 points 4 months ago

They started by calling China socialistic. What more do you need lol

[–] BachenBenno@feddit.de 10 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (3 children)

What's wrong with the DPRK? The only source that life there is terrible are defector's testimonies, which contradict each other on a daily basis and where the worst, most emotional stories are rewarded with fame and money. Often it's the only way to make ends meats for them. If you come to the south from the north you are a nobody.

Furthermore, the DPRK has never threatened anyone. They have a 100% literacy rate (literally on the CIA website) and every citizen is guaranteed free healthcare, free education and a place to live. They use all of their arible land for food production but because of the sanctions and their mountainous terrain sometimes they have scarcities, but no one is starving. Their constitution is full of human and political rights and social gurantees.

And to proof that I don't shill for any country calling itself socialist, I don't like China at all (while still thinking that they are at least better for the world than the US).

And of course there are things to criticize the DPRK for, like the lack of LGBT rights and their weapons exports and hackergroups. But considering the sanctions (that even China upholds) they are in very dier need of foreign currency.

I would also encourage everybody to study the history of Korea.

[–] Rivalarrival@lemmy.today 16 points 4 months ago (1 children)

The only source that life there is terrible are defector's testimonies, which contradict each other on a daily basis and where the worst, most emotional stories are rewarded with fame and money.

There are other sources.

For example:

[–] BachenBenno@feddit.de 8 points 4 months ago (1 children)

They turn most of their lights off at night to preserve power. They don't really have energy resources themselves and it is very difficult for them to get foreign currencies. They are still a poor country but considering that they are the most sanctioned country in the history of sanctions they are doing about at well as they can.

[–] Rivalarrival@lemmy.today 7 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

That might be their real problem. I mean, everywhere else on the planet, the value of menial labor greatly exceeds the cost of the lighting a human needs to be able to work. If they are, indeed, only providing lighting during daylight hours, they are only utilizing 1/3 to 1/2 of the industrial capacity they have invested in. They bought a tractor plant, but because they won't turn on the lights, it's production is far short of its capacity.

For want of a lightbulb, the production was lost. For want of production, farming equipment was lost. For want of farming equipment, the harvest was lost. For want of a harvest, the people were lost.

If the value of electricity to run a lightbulb so greatly exceeds the value of human labor, I would expect that they would have human powered generators to convert low-value human labor into high-value lighting, so that other laborers would have the light they need to produce.

[–] BachenBenno@feddit.de 4 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

First, factory lights only account for a small fraction of the power consumed and second people sleep at night. And third, it doesn't matter what the electricity costs if you don't have enough coal/oil/gas.

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[–] GreyEyedGhost@lemmy.ca 8 points 4 months ago

Their average height is much lower than people from South Korea. The most likely cause is malnutrition. When malnutrition affects even the military, your civilians aren't doing well.

If you're looking for sources, there are plenty of links should you search for "north korean vs south korean height". The difference is pretty dramatic for 75 years of isolation.

[–] imnotfromkaliningrad@lemmy.ml 6 points 4 months ago (1 children)

thank you, comrade!

one thing i might add is the fact that most if not all of the propagated lies about the dprk are projection. sexual slavery was a thing the american occupation forces engaged in massively and south korean dictator pak chong-hui was killed during a dinner party with a underage concubine present. later, haircut policing was a thing in the south during the 1980s under chon tu-hwan. the most prominent korean defector, pak yon-mi is a white supremacist btw.

i believe that the whole hacking thing is massively exaggerated by western media as part of their whole "the enemy is both weak and strong"-strategy. it is both a way to engineer further fear mongering against korea, as well as to mask their own incompetence. but even if im wrong and they are indeed from the dprk, i still find them quite based and funny tbh.

do you happen to have any resources on the lgbt situation within the county? i would love to educate myself on the topic.

i also slightly disagree with you on china. they never seized being a socialist state, but have sadly become revisionist since deng. that doesnt make them any less worthy of critical support though.

[–] BachenBenno@feddit.de 7 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Hello comrade.

China meets all criteria of Lenin's definition of an imperialist power, Marxism Today made a good explanation of it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc-3aE8mAlA Their loans might be a good alternative for third world nations to get away from the IMF but are still to further Chinese business interests.

I read/heard somewhere that homosexuality is forbidden in the DPRK but I am sorry to tell you I don't know where. I would have to look into it freshly too. I mentioned it more to make clear that I don't simp for any country and that it is possible to have a rational discussion with me.

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[–] SaltyIceteaMaker@lemmy.ml 26 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Man im pretty socialist who lives in ex east germany with my parents actually being parz of that time and i gotta tell you, with what i hear from them, it was horrible

[–] imnotfromkaliningrad@lemmy.ml 11 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (5 children)

ahhh yes... horrible as in:

  • guaranteed housing and employment
  • a non-discriminatory education system
  • 0% unemployment
  • low taxes
  • an actually functional railway network
  • a highly developed health care system that didn't discriminate on basis of class
  • guaranteed childcare
  • womens rights way more advanced than in western germany at the time
  • and most importantly no fascists in government

and no, i dont wanna say that there were no deficiencies, but it is rather obvious to me that it was quite the opposite of "horrible"!

also, what the hell do you mean by "pretty socialist"?

[–] SaltyIceteaMaker@lemmy.ml 23 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

Ah yes the oh so good DDR with exciting features such as

  • no freedom of movement

  • constant shortage of any goods

  • being a dictatorship

  • (contrary to your first point) a housing shortage

  • a culture so dictated by work that people had little to no free time

  • political pressure

  • control over the media

  • the fucking stasi

And what i mean by pretty socialist is: everyone gets equal opportunities no matter what race, religion, gender, political views, etc. I want that chad - who just lost all his belongings - has the same chance to live a fulfilled live as elon musk has. I abhorr the fact that there are billionaire's or even just millionaire's while other people have to choose between paying rent or eating, and those people not even being in the worst situation compared to others.

I want almost, but not completely, communism

[–] imnotfromkaliningrad@lemmy.ml 6 points 4 months ago (1 children)

im sorry but you seem to have been fed quite a few western myths about the gdr. you seem to be arguing in good faith though, so lets examine:

no freedom of movement

this is just plain wrong. tourism was possible and encouraged not only within the country, but also to fellow socialist states like czechoslovakia and hungary, as well as, albeit to a lesser extent the soviet union. such trips were enjoyed by virtually the entire population thanks to guaranteed vacation time.

constant shortage of goods

shortages were only a thing in the immediate aftermath of ww2, as well as during the 1980s. in the second case they were caused by the economic liberalization enacted at the time due to western pressure, as well as the general deterioration of conditions in the eastern block at the time, which happened for similar reasons. during the late 60s and 70s per capita consumption was more or less equal to the west.

being a dictatorship

every state is necessarily a dictatorship, as this is important for class preservation. just as liberal states will mercilessly crush revolutionary elements, so must socialist societies crush counterrevolutionary ones. please read engels on authority to understand this point better. it is a short read and very eye opening.

a housing shortage

any source on this claim? the only periods i can imagine this to be the case is in the beginning due to war era destruction and the end due to crisis.

a culture so dictated by work that people had little to no free time

this is in fact a valid point. a solution for this could have been found within the socialist system though.

political pressure

already answered previously in the point about "dictatorship".

control over the media

"All over the world, wherever there are capitalists, freedom of the press means freedom to buy up newspapers, to buy writers, to bribe, buy and fake “public opinion” for the benefit of the bourgeoisie."

– v. i. lenin

the fucking stasi

the mfs was necessary due to the constant threat of counterrevolution going out from west germany. but its reach and capabilities are much overblown in western propaganda nowadays. in fact, the east spent much less on its intelligence apparatus than the frg while still managing to have a lower crime rate.

the goals you stated are extremely noble and i do in fact agree with every single one of them. you are being idealist though, which means that you absolutely need to read theory, especially lenin. a good reading list can be found here. if you would educate yourself properly you could become a great contribution to the communist movement.

[–] apotheotic 7 points 4 months ago (1 children)

"Every state is necessarily a dictatorship" good gracious me what a horrifying sentiment

[–] imnotfromkaliningrad@lemmy.ml 4 points 4 months ago (2 children)

why? thats just a fact. a liberal state is the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, while a socialist state is the dictatorship of the proletariat.

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[–] dubyakay@lemmy.ca 13 points 4 months ago

This is bullshit. I will refute most of your points as someone who has lived in Socialist Hungary before the iron curtain.

  1. Housing was not guaranteed. You were assigned lodging based on need. If you had no children, you were staying with your parents and two siblings in the 1BR apartment. Once you got a kid, if you were a young couple, you got an apartment with an elderly in it, that you had to take care of along with your new born, until their death. After that the apartment would be yours. To overcome the shortages of housing, the government invested into building temporary housing called panel buildings. They were not meant to last for more than twenty years.
  2. Education was discriminatory in the sense that those favoured by the party got a pass. You have long hair? Your dad had long hair? You are a Gypsy? Yeah sure, you can pass elementary grade 8, but you sure as hell won't be allowed to go into a four-year highschool for your profession and graduation . Best you could hope for is a 2 year middle school for a manual labour job (szakmunkásképző). If at all. Often it's off to the fields for you to work at the communal fields.
  3. 0% unemployment because if you are unemployed you go to prison. Off to the fields or else!
  4. Sales tax (VAT) has been 25% even before 1988
  5. The railway system the country has was all built before the second world war. It got maintained during socialism, but the best they could do was put train drivers on concession show trials and execute them when accidents happened instead of actually improving the system. To this day the max speed on these rail lines is 120kmph and many of the smaller lines are falling into disrepair and unelectrified.
  6. Healthcare was universal, however it was not highly developed nor without discrimination. What was true for education was also true here. You better be a good party member or else. If you were lucky, you had a relative working in healthcare to skip waiting lines (I've benefited of this a lot)
  7. This one was a given. Although you still had to pay for meals for your kid at the daycare. But the times were also different back then. Those responsible for child care were not necessarily professionals and hitting children if they had misbehaved was still a thing.
  8. I don't think this had a measurable comparison in any way. How do you draw comparisons?
  9. Ahh yes, how nice. Went from nazi dictatorship to literal Russia planted dictatorships in both East Germany and Hungary ('56).
[–] Tiltinyall 11 points 4 months ago (3 children)

My family escaped to West Germany shortly after the war. They escaped starvation and joblessness. You are wrong.

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[–] 10_0@lemmy.ml 8 points 4 months ago

A prison the size of a country is still a prison.

( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoJ0Pih0Ssc )( How the Berlin Wall Worked )

[–] Tnaeriv@sopuli.xyz 8 points 4 months ago

Standard tankie tactic of telling people that literally lived under Soviet regime that they're wrong about their own experience. Stfu man

[–] LittleBorat2@lemmy.ml 25 points 4 months ago (1 children)

These westerners are social democrats which is not hard to understand, it's wiki entry away.

[–] davel@lemmy.ml 10 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

It’s infuriating considering that it’s in the first goddamn sentence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

Socialism is an economic and political philosophy encompassing diverse economic and social systems characterised by social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership.

If those libs could read they’d be very upset.

[–] AccurstDemon@sopuli.xyz 23 points 4 months ago (2 children)
[–] imnotfromkaliningrad@lemmy.ml 11 points 4 months ago (3 children)
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[–] Sailing7@lemmy.ml 9 points 4 months ago (2 children)

I fear I gotta move to a different instance. I'm also a lefty but gawd damn I will never try to justify the stuff some dudes on this instance do.

[–] davel@lemmy.ml 3 points 4 months ago

There’s a spectre haunting Sailing7 specter

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[–] RootBeerGuy@discuss.tchncs.de 13 points 4 months ago

Ah right, we are in the meme community. Carry on.

[–] hecklerundkochli@feddit.de 11 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

There is a massive difference between liking a concept or the implementation of that concept. Communism is an utopia, socialism is seen as the way to get there.

Socialism did not proof to be viable in reality, with dictators claiming to set up communist states, while not setting up working socialist societies.

The thing is that implementing such a society includes a massive restructuring of government and ownership of goods. Those measures have a very strong tendency to dissolve in civil wars and dictatorships. It is of course an option to label anyone who doesn’t want to give up resources an enemy of the class / state and imprison and torture them, but it does not create a stable society in which people actually choose to live, if they can decide on that.

Shit is complex.

[–] Recant 3 points 4 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

I would caution you about socialism being a way to get to communism.

Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, the founders of communist ideology, believed democratic socialism was a sham and true communism could only be achieved through a violent overthrow of the bourgeois.

The complex restructuring you mentioned is why they thought a transition from socialism to communism would not work.

Source: https://www.stephenhicks.org/2013/02/18/marxs-philosophy-and-the-necessity-of-violent-politics/

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[–] ChiefSinner@lemm.ee 11 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I just hate murderous regimes that murder millions of their own people

FTFY

[–] davel@lemmy.ml 3 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

Average imperial core Cold Warrior understander.

[–] ChiefSinner@lemm.ee 4 points 4 months ago (1 children)

The US is included in my list too with the Native American genocide for what its worth lol. But people tend to forget that Soviet Russia and Communist China killed millions of their own people. They should not be praised or imitated. We should learn from the horrible mistakes of the past.

[–] davel@lemmy.ml 3 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

By millions murdered, you don’t mean people who died in the last famine in China after centuries of famines, and you don’t mean the last famine in the region that became the USSR after centuries of famines, right? Famines that happened during or soon after the bloody revolutions overthrowing the tsars and emperors, under which the previous famines occurred?

[–] ChiefSinner@lemm.ee 3 points 4 months ago (3 children)

I mean in the boxer revolution and the millions that died in gulags in USSR because of famine and the government selecting people at random to starve to death in labor camps.

[–] davel@lemmy.ml 4 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (2 children)

The boxer rebellion was 50 years before the Chinese Communist Revolution. The CIA’s own unclassified reports show what people in gulags were fed. Why would they choose people at random? That would be dumb. Nazis, kulaks, other prisoners of the revolutionary war, and common criminals were in gulags.

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[–] IcePee@lemmy.beru.co 9 points 4 months ago (1 children)

... And? A lot of socialists are also libertarian in equal measure.

[–] imnotfromkaliningrad@lemmy.ml 9 points 4 months ago (2 children)

libertarian "socialists" are a deeply idealist tendency that didnt manage to get anything done ever. the only thing they do is criticize actually existing socialist projects, mostly using state department talking points. the concept of critical support is unknown to them and the only revolutions they like are the ones that fail. they are puppets in the hands of the cia.

[–] irmoz@reddthat.com 6 points 4 months ago (1 children)

It's not very enlightened to call entire movements like libertarian socialism (AKA anarchism) just idealist, ineffectual, and to imply they're essentially brainwashed by the US government.

Anti-state movements have a history as long and storied as socialism, and theoretical frameworks for their beliefs far more complex than you give them credit for.

[–] imnotfromkaliningrad@lemmy.ml 5 points 4 months ago (3 children)

yeah the state department point was probably a little harsh and generalizing of me, though i am indeed quite pissed how reactionaries like vaush or keffals are appropriating leftist aesthetics in order to shill for us imperialism. i am also standing with my statement about ancoms & co not getting anything done, sorry.

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[–] LainTrain@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 4 months ago

Anarchist Spain and the Makhnovhscina as short lived as they were were closer to even Marxist communism than any of those authoritarian shitholes

[–] belated_frog_pants 6 points 4 months ago

Those are all dictatorships using socialist policies to gain initial power then never letting go of political station. E.g. none of those countries, nor the US would please marx at all.

[–] Lightfire228@pawb.social 6 points 4 months ago (5 children)

You know, I thought that, with Lemmy being less popular than Reddit, there would be less political propaganda messaging on here

But it seems I'm mistaken

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[–] Tiltinyall 5 points 4 months ago

I'm beginning to respect socialists on the internet less and less. Y'all are such garbage trolls.

[–] darkphotonstudio 4 points 4 months ago

You mean these authoritarian governments objectively bad at being socialists?

[–] fl42v@lemmy.ml 3 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I kinda suspect ты из Калининграда

[–] imnotfromkaliningrad@lemmy.ml 4 points 4 months ago

виновен

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