this post was submitted on 09 Apr 2024
139 points (100.0% liked)

Linux

1259 readers
94 users here now

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Linux is a family of open source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux kernel, an operating system kernel first released on September 17, 1991 by Linus Torvalds. Linux is typically packaged in a Linux distribution (or distro for short).

Distributions include the Linux kernel and supporting system software and libraries, many of which are provided by the GNU Project. Many Linux distributions use the word "Linux" in their name, but the Free Software Foundation uses the name GNU/Linux to emphasize the importance of GNU software, causing some controversy.

Rules

Related Communities

Community icon by Alpár-Etele Méder, licensed under CC BY 3.0

founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
 

For example, I'm using Debian, and I think we could learn a thing or two from Mint about how to make it "friendlier" for new users. I often see Mint recommended to new users, but rarely Debian, which has a goal to be "the universal operating system".
I also think we could learn website design from.. looks at notes ..everyone else.

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] starman@programming.dev 83 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (4 children)

Every distro could learn from Arch Wiki

[–] 5714@lemmy.dbzer0.com 49 points 7 months ago

Even Arch Linux could learn from the Arch Wiki.

[–] lemmyvore@feddit.nl 10 points 7 months ago (1 children)

The Debian Wiki would actually like a word.

There is stuff in there that's not found anywhere else. For example while researching driverless printing recently I found a huge page on the Debian Wiki but the Arch wiki only has a paragraph saying supporting printers should be detected automatically.

[–] N0x0n@lemmy.ml 9 points 7 months ago

The Debian wiki is awsome. But it's less noob friendly than Arch wiki.

The web UI looks like an old forum from 2000. Don't get me wrong, a well written manpage style webpage is way better than an eye candy bloated scripted webpage (IMO) and I really like how detailed the Debian wiki is. But in today's "mental standards", the Debian wiki is not attractive enough for most new comer.

Also, It seems the Debian wiki is not as indexed as Arch wiki on the web.

Finally... I can't access their wiki with my VPN ! :/.

But I do agree, The Debian wiki is a gold mine !!!

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] bjoern_tantau@swg-empire.de 37 points 7 months ago (2 children)

The one thing I wish every distro would incorporate is the way Gentoo handles config file updates. If there are any changes you get the option of using a very simple side by side merge where you go through all the differences of the old and new configuration where you can decide which one to use going forward.

[–] Oisteink@feddit.nl 18 points 7 months ago (1 children)

While you will get somewhat the same from apt, I like the Debian way of providing base config support in packages and have local config loaded by include statements.

As you don’t edit the default config and automatic updates can happen w/o user input and your config will stay safe

[–] bjoern_tantau@swg-empire.de 9 points 7 months ago

That's the way it should be. But it depends on the software.

[–] MonkderDritte@feddit.de 5 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Pacman just dumps you a .pacnew, leaving the comparison to you (y'know, KISS). Your change isn't touched, unless it's .pacsave.

[–] Andromxda@lemmy.dbzer0.com 35 points 7 months ago (10 children)

Fedora, NixOS and Void need a proper wiki like Arch

Most distros could also learn from Arch and create something similar to the AUR. Nix is going in the right direction.

And I guess almost all distros could learn from Artix and Devuan and reconsider if systemd is the right choice.

[–] tatterdemalion@programming.dev 8 points 7 months ago (1 children)

NixOS is at least starting to work on a new wiki. The old one is gone and is only accessible from archive.org.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] onlinepersona@programming.dev 5 points 7 months ago (5 children)

Seconded. NixOS's documentation has consistently been the worst I've read, always forcing me to go to the source code to try and understand what in the world is happening. It makes quick changes to new things nigh impossible. I had to resort to taking notes when I understood things about nix in order to retain the knowledge or at least link to where I could easily regain it.

The nixos wiki was marginally better and https://nixlang.wiki/ has been better. However the latter is less known so has less content. All in all, nix documentation is still bad.

Anti Commercial AI thingyCC BY-NC-SA 4.0

load more comments (5 replies)
load more comments (8 replies)
[–] femboy_bird@lemmy.blahaj.zone 27 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I think more distros should have an easy way to set up disk level encryption in the installation

[–] teawrecks@sopuli.xyz 15 points 7 months ago (3 children)

And know how to use an existing btrfs partition. And always [at least have an option to] show exactly what the automatic installer is going to do before I run anything. There's gotta be a middle ground between "we'll just surprise you" and "here, do everything yourself".

load more comments (3 replies)
[–] Kuvwert@lemm.ee 27 points 7 months ago (13 children)

Just installed Debian today. Jesus the site/wiki is ugly

load more comments (13 replies)
[–] lnxtx@feddit.nl 16 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Gentoo - patience.
But seriously. With the USE flags, compiler options, you can understand software more from a developer's point of view.
You can try to optimize software for your hardware.
Fully explore the configure options. With a binary package you have no control.

[–] lemmyreader@lemmy.ml 14 points 7 months ago (2 children)

I think with Linux Mint the main User Friendly thing is its DE. But with Debian you can install Cinnamon DE as well. https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=cinnamon

btw, I quite like the Debian website, colors and design.

[–] GenderNeutralBro@lemmy.sdf.org 5 points 7 months ago (5 children)

The Debian web site needs a good UX overhaul. Prioritize the things people are most likely to want, make them prominent and uncluttered, and present a logical flow from one task to its follow-ups.

Just a quick glance yields the simplest example: the download link is not the first or most prominent thing on the main page. Clicking "download" gives you the netinst AMD64 ISO, which is reasonable enough, but there is no indication of how to install it. Clicking "user support" takes me to a page with extremely verbose descriptions of IRC, usenet groups, and mailing lists. I think the fastest way to get installation instructions is to click the tiny "other downloads" link (after I've already downloaded the one I want!), and then a link to the manual from there.

This is not a good UX. This is a demographic filter. You can argue that's appropriate for a technically-oriented OS. 9front explicitly makes itself unapproachable to dissuade casual users, but I think Debian can and should be more appealing to mainstream, casual newcomers.

load more comments (5 replies)
[–] 0x0@programming.dev 11 points 7 months ago (3 children)

Slackware - if it ain't broken don't fix it. Gentoo - USE flags. Mint - user-friendly.

load more comments (3 replies)
[–] rollingflower@lemmy.kde.social 9 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (8 children)

Fedora Atomic Desktop, mainly KDE.

  • Fedora adds their pretty useless Fedora Flatpak repo, that is more secure but has unofficial packages, an additional runtime in RAM and a very small set of apps (they need it due to "legal problems" when preinstalling apps. Like... just dont preinstall them but add a startup page to install them manually?)
  • There is no good way to use NVIDIA as it needs proprietary drivers and some tweaks. Ublue fixes that. Same with other out-of-tree stuff. Not really their fault, but be aware that atomic Fedora has basically no proprietary NVIDIA driver support.
  • i think their kernel is extremely bloated, I would prefer having separate ones for only intel, amd, nouveau and also removing all the legacy hardware drivers nobody uses
  • an x86_64-v4 (or at least v3) variant would be really necessary (my 2012 Thinkpad is v3)
  • they will likely prefer to use flatpak firefox, just like ublue does, ignoring the inability to sandbox processes at all. This is the list of issues that need solving until Firefox "can be shipped as flatpak"
  • they use toolbx (with that silly rename from "toolbox") instead of distrobox. Distrobox has way more critical features like a separate home, which prevents breakages through conflicting dotfiles. Toolbx is the worse product.

Also, their traditional KDE variant is very bloated, which is why I updated this guide

But overall its still my favourite distro. Has a nice community, all the desktops you want, SELinux (which is btw required to make Waydroid somewhat secure) and their atomic stuff is an awesome base thanks to ublue.

[–] meteokr@community.adiquaints.moe 4 points 7 months ago (5 children)

You mention that their kernel is bloated, would you mind sharing how you measure it compared to other kernels. Such as their kernel vs something more trimmed down. Is it a storage space savings or memory? I've never really considered the weight of a kernel when considering different distros so if you have some method I'd love to try and compare what I'm running.

load more comments (5 replies)
load more comments (7 replies)
[–] Yuki@kutsuya.dev 7 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (4 children)

Debian is so hecking unstable for me omg... For some reason it just doesn't play well with any hardware setup I've ever tried.

Anyways, I use arch Linux which could REALLY do with a nice wiki overhaul by now. It's not beginner friendly AT ALL! Been using the same install for almost 3 years now I think, but man... When I have to figure out something, the wiki isn't the first thing I'll go anymore.

EDIT: Why the downvotes?

[–] pmk@lemmy.sdf.org 15 points 7 months ago (1 children)

If Debian fails in the same predictable way every time, for the same reason, it could be argued that it's very stable, just not functional :) What kind of hardware do you use by the way?

[–] Yuki@kutsuya.dev 5 points 7 months ago (1 children)

It fails to run after a few days on several different laptops I've tried it on. Also on my main computer which is an amd 3900x with 64gb ram and a 3090. Arch however works perfectly fine, which is odd as heck

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] lemmyreader@lemmy.ml 13 points 7 months ago (2 children)

The Arch Linux wiki has been the best source for information for a long time for me. Many years ago the Gentoo wiki was good as well, till they lost all content and had to start from scratch.

[–] dan@upvote.au 8 points 7 months ago

I use Debian but still use the Arch wiki quite often. It's a great resource. I improve Debian's wiki where I can (eg I wrote a few sections on this page: https://wiki.debian.org/NFSServerSetup) but it's just not the same.

[–] starman@programming.dev 5 points 7 months ago (1 children)

[...] till they lost all content and had to start from scratch.

What happened? Now you got me curious

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] Petter1@lemm.ee 5 points 7 months ago (2 children)

Downvote because i like the arch wiki very much and it was beginner friendly enough for me, tho (installed arch as a noob recently)

(Well I did not really downvote to be honest, but if I did, that would be the reason)

load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] LeFantome@programming.dev 6 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I do not recall other distros failing to update due to GPG key issues but it has happened to me on Arch distros many times. It is the biggest pain when converting from something like Manjaro to something like EndeavourOS as well.

I really do not understand why this cannot be fixed.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] Titou@feddit.de 6 points 7 months ago (12 children)

If you want Debian but user-friendly, just use Mint, Debian is easy enough to install. It's like asking Gentoo or Arch to drop a easy installer, it would break the point of using it.

load more comments (12 replies)
[–] Sophocles@infosec.pub 6 points 7 months ago

I switched my daily driver to Linux Mint Debian Edition recently and it definitely does combine the best of both. It's easy to use and coming from plain debian has everything that I'm used to. Been loving it so far.

[–] dotslashme@infosec.pub 6 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Not my current distro but I love ChimeraLinux, they manage to put musl and BSD userland into a working wonderful distro. I wish more distros adopted musl.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] biribiri11@lemmy.ml 6 points 7 months ago

I’d really like it if Fedora didn’t discourage packaging static libs, but still discouraged building packages with static libs. It’d be nice to have them for development purposes.

I also wish they made “third party” software a bit easier to access in their installer and distro as a whole. The option to enable Nvidia drivers is buried, and even though flathub is now unrestricted when toggled in the installer, it’s not the first priority when prompted for software to install in gnome software.

A longer support cycle with less releases would also be nice, but would defeat the purpose of the distro. I guess it’d make more sense if CentOS Stream released more frequently and with more packages available in EPEL, similar to Ubuntu.

[–] eveninghere 5 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

(Edit: Iirc)

Debian-variants on cmake. When I install cmake, it installs all libraries' cmake files without the libraries themselves. You read it right. The correct way to do this is to install only the base CMake files (Arch does this, and I guess all other distros). CMake configuration files for libraries should be packaged with the library (not CMake).

Whenever I use CMake, these distros can't show me the supposed error message. They just pretend configuration progressed and stop at random moments because some headers are missing. You see a compiler error, see missing headers, perhaps wonder if your install is outdated. Google it, and find out through Ubuntu SO that it's actually that a package is missing WTF. Without someone writing it on the web for all Debian packages, maybe you'd have never understood what's wrong!

I don't use Debian for C/C++ development anymore partially because it's so horrible.

[–] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 5 points 7 months ago

Debian used to uphold free software values. I'm not sure what its purpose is now.

Debian is a multipurpose I suppose

[–] 0x0@programming.dev 5 points 7 months ago (1 children)

The universal operating system keeps dropping support for archs few people use... how universal, eh?

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] Vincent@feddit.nl 5 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I'm on Fedora Silverblue, which is great now, but when I installed it, I remember thinking that its installer was way less intuitive than Ubuntu's, and I think it also had fewer features (e.g. discovering existing operating systems and offering to install alongside it, IIRC?). I've seen screenshots of a new installer being in development, which looked like an improvement, but still not as smooth an experience as Ubuntu's.

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments
view more: next ›