this post was submitted on 16 Jan 2024
1140 points (100.0% liked)

Memes

1354 readers
14 users here now

Rules:

  1. Be civil and nice.
  2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you have to.

founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
 
top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] iAmTheTot@kbin.social 98 points 8 months ago (3 children)

No one gets a second home until everyone has their first.

[–] BeardedGingerWonder@feddit.uk 52 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Rental has its place, there have been plenty of occasions in my life where rental suited me better than ownership. Regulation and enforcement of said regulations would do a lot to protect people in this situation.

[–] JoYo@lemmy.ml 10 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

Dude from Ukraine was telling me that most people own condos. He was weirded out that the vast majority of people in the US don't have a vested interest into their neighborhood simply because they believe they won't live there for long.

[–] noobdoomguy8658@feddit.de 9 points 8 months ago

Did he mention that a lot of the real estate that people own in most post-Soviet countries is inherited when (grand)parents die, this being first if not the only step towards the market for most people?

None of the people I know from Russia, Kazakhstan, Ukraine and Belarus bought their first apartments on their own through hard work or anything: it's mostly apartments where your grandma died, apartments that you're either massively helped with or outright gifted by parents when yuu have a significant other to move in with (so both families join funds, most coming from selling some dead relative's apartment) or on a wedding day (a rarer occasion), or some mix of that.

Without any help or gifts, you're lucky to be able to get a mortgage that you can pay off before you're 60 (at least).

The real estate prices outside the US and the EU may seem nicer, but salaries and expenses sure don't.

Everybody is screwed, everywhere.

[–] Riven@lemmy.dbzer0.com 25 points 8 months ago (2 children)

People who own second and third homes aren't even the issue. It's mega corps that literally own tens of thousands of homes each. A better way to go about it is to just progressively tax people more per home. That second home gets taxed at the same rate but any home after is taxed way way way more. If someone can still afford it then that's fine, just more tax money coming in. That and don't let corps own rental properties.

[–] iAmTheTot@kbin.social 15 points 8 months ago

Nope, I said what I said. No one needs a second home. Lots of people need a first.

[–] Denjin@lemmings.world 5 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Logarithmic scale of increasing property tax rate

[–] CallumWells@lemmy.ml 4 points 8 months ago

Not sure if you actually meant logarithmic or exponential. An exponential tax rate would mean that the more you own the next unit of value would be a lot more in tax, while a logarithmic tax rate would mean that the more you own the next unit of value would be a lot less in tax. See x^2^ versus log~2~(x) (or any logarithm base, really). The exponential (x^2^) would start slow and then increase fast, and the logarithmic one would start increasing fast and then go into increasing slowly.

https://www.desmos.com/calculator/7l1turktmc

[–] Alsephina@lemmy.ml 4 points 8 months ago

Yup. Housing is for people to live in, not for speculation.

[–] rekabis@lemmy.ca 56 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (5 children)

Posted in a Canadian channel before, because I am Canadian:


The housing crisis arises out of one problem, and one problem only:

Housing as an investment.

That’s not to say foreigners are to blame - at less than 2% of the market, they don’t have any real impact. British Columbia’s laws against foreign home ownership is nothing more than a red herring, a bullshit move designed to flame racism and bigotry. Yes, some of them are just looking to build anchors in a prosperous first-world country, but most are honest buyers.

A better move has been the “speculation tax”. By taxing more heavily any home that remains empty, it encourages property holders to actually rent these units out, instead of holding out for people desperate enough to pay their nosebleed-high rents.

But all of this misses the real mark: housing used purely as investment.

Now, to be absolutely clear, I am not talking about landlords who have a “mortgage helper” suite, or who have held on to a home or two that they previously lived in. These are typically the good landlords that we need - those with just two or three rental units, and that aren’t landlording as a business, just as a small top-up to their day job or as an extra plump-up to the retirement funds they are living off of. By having many thousands of separate landlords instead of one monolith, healthy competition is preserved.

No, there are two types of “investors” that I would directly target:

  1. Flippers
  2. Landlords-as-a-business.

1) Flippers

The first group, flippers, also come in two distinct types:

  1. Those that buy up homes “on spec” before ground has even been turned, and then re-sell those same homes for much more than they bought shortly before these homes are completed. Sometimes for twice as much as they paid.
  2. Those that buy up an older, tired home, slap on a coat of paint, spackle over holes in the walls, paper over the major flaws in hopes that inspectors don’t catch them, and shove in an ultra-cheap but shiny Ikea kitchen that will barely last a decade, then re-sell it for much more than they paid for it.

Both of these groups have contributed to the massive rise in housing purchase prices over the last thirty years. For a family that could afford a 3Bdrm home in 2000, their wages have only increased by half again, while home values have gone up by five times by 2023.

And this all comes down to speculation driving up the cost of homes.

So how do we combat this? Simple: to make it more attractive for owner-occupiers to buy a home than investors.

A family lives in a home that they own for an average of 8 years. Some less, most a lot more. We start by taxing any home sale at 100% for any owner who hasn’t lived in said home as their primary residence for at least two years (730 contiguous days). We then do a straight line depreciation from the end of the second year down to 0% taxation at the end of the eighth year. Or maybe we be kind and use a sigmoid curve to tax the last two years very minimally.

Exceptions can exist, of course, for those who have been widowed, or deployed overseas, or in the RCMP and deployed elsewhere in Canada, or where the house has been ordered to be sold by the court for divorce proceedings, and so forth. But simple bankruptcy would not be eligible, because it would be abused as a loophole.

But the point here is that homes will then become available to those working-class people who have been desperate to get off of the rental merry-go-round, but who have been unable to because home prices have been rising much faster than their down payment ever could.

This tax would absolutely cut investors off at the knees. Flippers would have to live in a home much, much longer, and spec flippers would be put entirely out of business, because they can’t even live in that house until it is fully completed in the first place.


2) Landlords-as-a-business

The second group is much simpler. It involves anyone who has ever bought a home purely to rent it back out, seeking to become a parasite on the backs of working-class Canadians in order to generate a labour-free revenue stream that would replace their day job. Some of these are individuals, but some of these are also businesses. To which there would be two simple laws created:

  1. It would become illegal for any business to hold any residential property whatsoever that was in a legally habitable state. This wouldn’t prevent businesses from building homes, but it would prevent a business from buying up entire neighbourhoods just to monopolize that area and jack up the rent to the maximum that the market could bear.
  2. Any individual owning more than 5 (or so) rental units (not just homes!) would be re-classified as operating as a business, and therefore become ineligible to own any of them - they would have to immediately sell all of them.

As for № 2, a lot of loopholes can exist that a sharp reader would immediately identify. So we close them, too.

  • Children under 24 “operate as a business” automatically with any rental unit. They are allowed ZERO. Because who TF under the age of 25 is wealthy enough to own rental units? No-one, unless these units were “gifted” to them from their parents, in an attempt to skirt the law. So that is one loophole closed.
  • Additional immediate family members are reduced by half in the number of rental units they can own. So if a husband has the (arbitrary, for the sake of argument) maximum limit of five, the wife can only have two herself. Any other family member who wants to own a rental unit, and who does not live in the same household, must provide full disclosure to where their money is coming from, and demonstrate that it is not coming from other family members who already own rental units.

By severely constraining the number of investors in the market, more housing becomes available to those who actually want to stop being renters. Actual working-class people can exit the rental market, reducing demand for rental units, and therefore reducing rental prices. These lower rental prices then make landlording less attractive, reducing the investor demand for homes and reducing bidding wars by deep-pocketed investors, eventually reducing overall home values for those who actually want to buy a home to live in it.

Plus, landlords will also become aware of the tax laid out in the first section that targets flippers. If they own rental units that they have never lived in as their primary residence, they will also be unable to sell these units for anything other than a steep loss. They will then try to exit the market before such a tax comes into effect, flooding the market with homes and causing prices to crash. They know that they are staring down two massive problems:

Being stuck with a high-cost asset (purchase price) that only produces a low-revenue stream because renters have exited the market by buying affordable homes, allowing plenty of stock that is pincered by the spec tax that heavily taxes empty rental units, thereby lowering rental prices well beneath the cost of the mortgage on the unit.

By putting these two tools into effect at the same time, we force a massive exodus of landlords out of the marketplace, crashing home values to where they become affordable to working-class people, thereby massively draining the numbers of renters looking for places to rent. Those places still being rented out - by owners who have previously lived in them, or by investors who couldn’t sell in time - would significantly outnumber renters looking for a place to rent, thereby crashing rental prices as renters could then dictate rents by being able to walk away from unattractive units or abusive landlords.

Full disclosure: I own, I don’t rent. But I have vanishingly little sympathy for greed-obsessed parasites that suck the future out of hard-working Canadians who must pay 60% or more of their wages for shitbox rentals to abusive landlords in today’s marketplace. Most people (and pretty much anyone under the age of 30) who don’t already own no longer have any hope of ever owning a house, as their ability to build a down payment shrinks every year, while home values accelerate into the stratosphere.

[–] driving_crooner@lemmy.eco.br 10 points 8 months ago

I can't find the video, but the YouTube channel Oh the Urbanity! Did a pretty well explanation to why housing is so costly on Canada and the main problem is actually zoning laws. Like in 99% in Canada you can't built anything but single family detached houses.

[–] Schadrach@lemmy.sdf.org 6 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

This would get messy with inheritances. So if you own and a family member passes away, you'd have to either move into that home for two years or it would be worthless to sell? That's going to create some perverse incentives regarding old folks and housing.

Related to why someone under 25 might own a rental unit.

Also, would this apply to non residential rental properties?

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] AlolanYoda@mander.xyz 4 points 8 months ago

I did not read all of this yet. But I always agreed with you on that housing as an investment was the crux of the problem, I just never knew exactly how to tackle it. Your write-up is great, and even if there are many issues that could arise from some of the implementation ideas, it's an amazing beginning to a conversation we should have been having for at least decades.

Thank you very much! I will save this comment to come back to often.

[–] frezik@midwest.social 3 points 8 months ago

The housing crisis arises out of one problem, and one problem only:

Housing as an investment.

My city has a rental vacancy rate of <4%, and a homeowner vacancy rate of <1%. Flippers leave a house empty while under the process of flipping it, and that's not what the numbers show. Landlords do increase the cost compared to ownership (they have to cover all normal costs of ownership, plus have profit for themselves), but they don't reduce the number of shelters being occupied. Not when vacancy rates are this low.

In other words, my particular city may have costs driven up by flippers and landlords, but the number of dwelling units would be short even without them. Getting rid of them would be an insufficient solution, even if there are some benefits on costs. It does not address the problem that we need more dwelling units.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] Dirk@lemmy.ml 39 points 8 months ago (2 children)

No person should be allowed to own more residential property than they're realistically need for living.

[–] TimeSquirrel@kbin.social 7 points 8 months ago (1 children)

I'm just curious how we'll define "realistic", because someone who's into just software programming might be satisfied with a studio apartment. I can't live without my basement workshop however. I like to make stuff.

[–] Dirk@lemmy.ml 14 points 8 months ago (1 children)

That's valid. But, for example: You don't need a dozen of different houses.

[–] essellburns 8 points 8 months ago

Either end of the scale is clear. Less clear in the middle 😞

[–] DessertStorms@kbin.social 4 points 8 months ago

This is it right here. Housing is a right, not a commodity. Landlords shouldn't exist.

[–] snake_cased@lemmy.ml 36 points 8 months ago (9 children)

Landownership is wrong all together.

If you think about it, it is completely absurd, why anyone assumes the right to 'own' a piece of land. Or even more land than the other guy. Someone must have been the person to first come up with the idea of ownership, but it is and was never based on anything other than an idea, and we should question it.

After all inheritance of landownership is a major cornerstone of our unjust and exploitative society.

[–] UnrepententProcrastinator@lemmy.ca 22 points 8 months ago (4 children)

Every generation, people want to try new things and it's nice. But landownership can and has been and good thing in a way that just going back to "anarchy" wouldn't work. E.g. creation of ghettos, who gets to farm the best land, etc.

So then the suggestions are that the land are owned and "managed" by the state apparatus. Now we have a few famines in history to show us how gaining favor in a political system is not the best way to manage the land.

I'm open to better suggestions but just shitting on land ownership seems easy and unproductive.

[–] Aasikki@sopuli.xyz 12 points 8 months ago (2 children)

If someone owns a house, they kinda have to own at the very least some land around it. I just don't really see any other way for that to work. Would be interesting to hear how that could work otherwise.

[–] DragonTypeWyvern@literature.cafe 4 points 8 months ago

This isn't something I know a whole lot about, because I don't believe in the abolition of private property on an individual level, but it's my understanding the crunchy types would ask:

What makes you think they have to own the land around it? There are plenty of home owners right now who don't have yards.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] DragonTypeWyvern@literature.cafe 5 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

Define for the class what you think anarchy means, and, wait one minute, you think ghettos are created by people not recognizing private land ownership?

[–] UnrepententProcrastinator@lemmy.ca 3 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Anarchy in 2 words, no state. It's mostly a thing in history in opposition to something else.

Don't be silly, I know why ghettos are created. My point was more towards the organization of urbanization through land ownership can help.

Now what do you propose we implement instead?

[–] DragonTypeWyvern@literature.cafe 2 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (3 children)

There's quite a lot of thought missing from your definition of anarchy, including, ya know, all of the ideas on how to make that work, and the assumption by most that it wouldn't be an immediate process, and for someone that knows how ghettos are created, you sure used it as a criticism of an idea that would make them literally impossible, while doubling down on insisting that the thing creating ghettos can solve the ghettos if you... Do it more, and harder?

I don't actually believe in the dissolution of private property, at least in regards to individual land ownership, up to a certain point. I just take issue with people stating their opinions as facts, especially when they're just flat out wrong.

load more comments (3 replies)
[–] WanderingVentra@lemm.ee 4 points 8 months ago

I'm pretty sure the Native Americans didn't believe in land ownership, at least not individual land ownership, more of a communal version, and it worked out well for them. They had huge societies, vast trade networks, and were able to feed themselves fine. It requires a different, non-capitalist, non-Western mindset, but it can work.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] Pyr_Pressure@lemmy.ca 6 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Unfortunately land will fall into disrepair if someone doesn't actually own it. They have no incentive to invest in its upkeep if it can just be taken away at any moment. There's a reason rental buildings have a reputation for being unkempt, the renters don't want to pay for the upkeep since it's not theirs and the landlords don't want to pay for the upkeep because they don't live there.

It gets even worse if government owns it, it would take 6 months just to get a light bulb changed let alone a new roof or hedges trimmed.

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (7 replies)
[–] Norgur@kbin.social 30 points 8 months ago (2 children)

That sounds like a solution but isn't. In my experience, the corporations I had as landlords were completely aware of what they are allowed to do and are obligated to do. The private landlords I had were the craziest bitches imaginable. Stuff didn't happen as it should have, laws were intentionally misinterpreted and twisted, etc.
The reason why my experience differs so much is laws. Here in Germany, we've got strong renter's protection laws. They are still too weak in some places but really, really clear in most. So while my private landlord tried to make me pay for repairs, the company doesn't bother with such illegal bullshit, sends over a contractor they work with regularly and shit gets done.

[–] AnarchoSnowPlow@midwest.social 15 points 8 months ago (2 children)

We have those problems here (the US) too but the greater problem is that corporations buying up homes is driving increases in housing prices. Greater housing prices leads to higher rent and higher mortgage payments, fucking over regular people every which way, unless of course you happened to buy your home 30 years ago, in which case everything's peachy and you can reverse mortgage yourself into a vacation home in Boca.

[–] OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip 4 points 8 months ago

There are some better ways to address this than what this post is advocating.

For example, why should a corporation buying a residential property be getting the same (or better) interest rate than an individual who intends to buy it and live in it?

Why should that corporation be able to deduct expenses that an individual could not if they were living there?

There are ways to give the individuals a leg up over the corporations in the market without something drastic like this that has no chance of happening.

[–] CylustheVirus 2 points 8 months ago

We have a self inflicted real estate speculation problem. Housing can be a good investment or it can be affordable, but not both.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] frezik@midwest.social 24 points 8 months ago (1 children)

A co-op is another form of corporation. Dense, multi-family structures should be done that way.

What we don't want is for housing to be a speculative investment. Remove the profit motive of holding a house that's empty and reselling.

[–] interolivary 3 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Up until very recently most housing in Finland was co-ops, and it's still extremely common although many new developments are built and owned by corporations which then rent them out.

I live and own shares in a new housing co-op (proportional to the size of my apartment), and all of us together own and run the building and we're renting the property from the city (although you can buy your share of that property off from the city if you don't want to pay that rent.) It's not a perfect system by any means but it's better than corporations owning everything; ideally the people who live in a building are the ones who decide how it's run, but of course that's sort of gone out the window too with rich people just buying properties speculatively and to rent them out. If enough of the shareholders in a building are rent-seekers, upkeep of the building is going to go way down because they don't live there themselves and don't give a shit about whether it's a nice place to live in, they care about making a profit.

[–] HelixDab2@lemm.ee 12 points 8 months ago (2 children)

You run into a problem that you need to mitigate for this to work: qualifying for a mortgage.

A landlord can rent to you for a year--or less--and they assume the risk of you not paying and needing to evict you. Their income verification can be a lot more loose as a result. A bank is going to be in a relationship with you for 15-30 years; they want to be pretty sure that you're going to be able to meet your financial obligations for that whole time period. As a result, they're going to be quite a bit more strict about proof of income, etc.

Renting can be cheaper, too; a tenant isn't on the hook for repairs to a unit, but when I need a new roof in my house, or the water heater goes out, I get to pay every penny of that myself. Yeah, the mortgage is cheaper, but just because you can afford the mortgage doesn't mean that you can afford everything else that goes into owning a home.

You also get into weird and perverse tax and zoning incentives that can make it difficult to build any kind of affordable housing; Dems say they want affordable housing, right up until someone wants to put it in their neighborhood, then they start acting like Republicans.

Yes, the lack of affordable housing is a huge problem. But it's not quite as black and white as it often seems.

[–] Slithers@reddthat.com 9 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Renting can be cheaper, too; a tenant isn't on the hook for repairs to a unit, but when I need a new roof in my house, or the water heater goes out, I get to pay every penny of that myself. Yeah, the mortgage is cheaper, but just because you can afford the mortgage doesn't mean that you can afford everything else that goes into owning a home.

Don't worry about that, landlords have figured that out. There's a new 500 unit apartment complex that is currently being built in the Philadelphia suburbs that is taking applicants for units at the affordable price of $3500 per month.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] explodicle@local106.com 8 points 8 months ago

One factor that might be interesting is if renting was banned, then property values would plummet – making mortgages more affordable. But I don't know if this would fully offset mortgage risk premiums and water heater (etc) insurance.

[–] scrubbles@poptalk.scrubbles.tech 12 points 8 months ago (1 children)

We have one area of actual steady investment in our lives - our homes. And they can't handle us making a tiny bit of money

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] haui_lemmy@lemmy.giftedmc.com 9 points 8 months ago (9 children)

Easy solution in my opinion:

  1. only humans can own residential buildings
  2. you must live in the building you own
[–] rando895@lemmy.ml 5 points 8 months ago (1 children)
  1. And you may own one cabin but it must be used by you and cannot be rented out
[–] haui_lemmy@lemmy.giftedmc.com 2 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Sounds great. When do we announce our international party to our voters?

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (8 replies)
[–] GardeningSadhu@lemm.ee 4 points 8 months ago
[–] JoMomma@lemm.ee 4 points 8 months ago

At least 20 corporate shills have seen this post

[–] Glide@lemmy.ca 4 points 8 months ago

You could have just stopped at "allowed."

[–] criticalcentrist@discuss.online 3 points 8 months ago

Hmm, I think large corporations should never be allowed to purchase residences though anyone is allowed to create a corporation in the US you'll just need to declare a CEO, COO, and a treasurer. This could be a simple mom-and-pop family business with 3-4 people/employees, this could prevent a lot of normal people/small business owners struggling to create a profit from purchasing workspaces, their own home, work equipment.

[–] Sotuanduso@lemm.ee 2 points 8 months ago

Huh, I thought this was about corporations tearing down apartments to build offices, but apparently that's not what everyone else was thinking.

load more comments
view more: next ›