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He did not have total control. If you don't agree with Soviet records, then let the CIA themselves explain in an internal, never meant to be revealed document. Stalin was often contested, and did not have the ability to make anything happen. He had power as the head of state, but it was neither absolute nor all-encompasing.
It seems most historians disagree with your thought here, as shown in the earlier quotes. You claim he was often contested, did not have the ability to make anything happen and so on, but that doesn't seem to have been the reality. Even this document you shared just says it was "exaggerated", not that he didn't have those powers. But most considering his rule seem to have labeled him as a dictator and it's very easy to see why.
Soviet records on if their leader was a dictator or not? Buddy.
I never said he was powerless, I said he did not have sole control nor all-encompassing power. He was the head of state, of course he had power. The CIA is directly contesting your mythology here. The majority of evidence points towards Stalin not being an absolute and all-powerful demigod dictator, but a head of state in a large system with lots of moving parts that frequently went against what he personally wanted.
Soviet Records on democratic processes and political structuring.
"Did not have the ability to make anything happen" would make him seem very powerless.
My mythology of just the normal historians' view on Stalin, as in, him being a dictator.
The stress is meant to be placed on anything, ie he couldn't snap his fingers and magically have his will be done. He played a large role in directing policy, especially during WWII.
What constitutes a "Normal Historian?" The CIA didn't agree with you and neither does historical evidence.
I think it would've been clearer to say "everything" than "anything". Because now it just sounds like he couldn't do anything
Just historians who've looked into Stalin, Soviet Union, the sort. Historians meaning people who've studied history.
It's one review from CIA. Do we know anything else from this document, its significance, whether it was the consensus in the CIA, any of this sort of things?
Historians seem to disagree.
Fair and valid point.
There are numerous pro-Soviet historians as well, you're not referencing anything, just calling upon the mystical and undefined idea of "Normal Historians."
It's one document, and yet more than anything you've provided beyond vibes. Do you have any actual evidence?
I'm not really talking about pro or anti-Soviet historians. just the majority of the prominent ones who have studied the subject. Preferably you'd want to trust historians who avoid thinking of historical stuff as some pro-anti thing as you've framed it.
Sources for the Wikipedia article are linked with as [1] that. I can paste them here if that's what you want, for easier access I guess.
Name one.
Are you saying you stand by all sources listed in the Wikipedia articles, even the ones that have been contested or outright disproven?
For the dictator claim? Martin McCauley is cited on Wikipedia. Oleg Khlevniuk too. Some others, but you asked for one.
I was just noting that the sources for the claims are there. Wikipedia is just a convenient thing to refer to, as you know.
Okay, and what did these historians explicitly claim? Did they say Stalin alone controlled the entirety of the USSR uncontestably?
As it relates to the conversation, that Stalin was a dictator. Khlevniuk's book is literally titled Stalin: New Biography of a Dictator lol. So they certainly believe that the requirements for calling him a dictator has been sufficiently fulfilled. Both "Stalin: New Biography of a Dictator" and "Stalin and Stalinism" are available to read, if you catch my drift, but if you want me to recite parts from them for you, you'll have to wait for me to get home.
I'm aware. What specifically did they say that led them to that claim? Did they change the definition of dictator, or did they provide sufficient evidence that Stalin had absolute and all-encompassing control of the entire USSR?
I'm reading the Stalin and Stalinism (3rd edition) book and it just seems to be the run-of-the-mill dictator stuff. Violence, intimidation, cult of personality, so on. If you want a quote, then there's page 59-60, here's a short excerpt (because pasting from a pdf is a bitch):
And so on. I haven't as much time to check out Stalin: Khlevniuk's book "Stalin: A New Biography of a Dictator" but it seems to have the same opinion and describes the usual features of a dictatorship and Stalin's role as one. Some short quotes, page 137 onwards:
Pasting from those books is such a pain that if you want further clarification, I hope you check out the book and maybe in turn point out what you disagree with in their characterization of Stalin as a dictator. To me it seems all very run-of-the-mill description of one.
You're getting your resources from Martin McCauley, a Pro-Western Anticommunist who wrote dozens of Anticommunist books during the Cold War. A grifter, so to speak. Additionally, he is a member of the Limehouse Group of Analysts, a Zionist, Islamophobic, pro-NATO, pro-Western group of political analysts with ties to the Defense Industries of Western Countries.
Additionally, he wrote your quoted texts from before Soviet Archives became public.
This is why it's important to vet your sources.
It's just that Khlevniuk seems to agree on the factual things mentioned in the books. So do other sources I look up. And this particular book is very highly regarded as far as I can tell. They do all paint a very clear picture if you ask me.
It's absolutely important to vet your sources but usually so you know to expect some factual errors. If there's something erroneous in the book related to his description of the Stalinist state and Stalin's position in it, you should definitely point it out.
The revised 3rd edition is from 2003. It does note in the foreword "Since the second edition of this book, there has been an explosion of published materials. Very revealing are the documents which permit a greater insight into the day-to-day decision making of the Stalinist state." Haven't checked if the chapter is unchanged in the 4th edition.
As an example, no sources are put forward in your first exerpt, no references. This is an opinion piece from a Zionist, anticommunist grifter.
It's just happens that his opinions seem to largely shared by other works about Soviet Union during Stalin. Such as the other book mentioned. It seems to be more fastidious with sourcing the claims too, so it might be more to your liking in that respect.
I wonder why books published by an Anticommunist country that went through a decades long scare would have anticommunist grifters with anticommunist opinions. I am also curious why said anticommunists also happen to be islamophobic, pro-NATO, Zionist, pro-Imperialism, and have ties to the Military Industrial Complex.
Khlevniuk is Russia. Not that I'd consider the nationality the thing I use to judge historians.
We are talking about Martin McCauley, who wrote Stalin and Stalinism.
We were talking about them both. You chose to focus on only one of them, despite both making the claim about Stalin being a dictator.
Because I didn't bother with the second after realizing you believe a fascist-written opinion piece to be worthy of respect.
I was under the impression it was the claims we were discussing, which Khlevniuk's book seem to support, not what or who deserves our respect. For that reason it might be worthwhile to check that out too. Totally up to you of course.
Respect, as in accept the opinions. Nothing you have shown has supported the idea that Stalin could not be opposed, and was not opposed, nor that he was all-powerful.
We were talking about whether Stalin was a dictator or not. Khlevniuk's Stalin: A New Biography of a Dictator makes that case.
Even Hitler wasn't a dictator on those grounds. And I think he is considered the epitome of a modern day dictator.
What is a dictator, in your opinion? What separates a dictator from a regular head of state?
Power. But for meaning of the word, I'd just go with something like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictator. Fair few mentions of Stalin there, but definitely second to Hitler.
What level of power? Like, is it just a vibe? If the vibes are off, or if they're alright? By your definition linked, the idea of Absolute Power, Stalin was not a dictator as we have shown.
If you take it literally, neither was Hitler. And at that point you might need to reconsider how you define it. But as commonly defined and used, most seem to consider them both dictators for similar sort of merits.
My point is that using "Stalin was a dictator" as a reason for why the USSR was bad is like saying "The US is bad because Biden is stinky." I am asking for actual, genuine, measurable issues, of which there are plenty, so that we can compare with other countries and see what should have been done instead. You haven't provided any of that.
The discussion was if Stalin was a dictator to begin with.
I did mention the purges, murders and sending political opponents to concentration camps. It's a side-effect from the dictator thing and I'd personally consider that a bit "stinky".
The question posed isn't whether or not Stalin was a good or bad person. I do not care about long-dead men, I care about structures. Stalin did not individually cause or carry out purges, how could he have done so?
The Soviet Model is one that had numerous growing pains. There were horrible crimes committed by the Soviet State, but at a far lesser extent than contemporary States such as the US, especially with the international aspect. Stalin's role was not as some Great Man (not Great as in Good, but Great as in influential), but as a steward of the USSR like any other would have been.
I do consider Stalin to have in many ways been reactionary, but also as a Marxist, and one that more often than not carried forward the will of the Working Class. I do not believe the claim of him to have had absolute power or control has weight.
Does this make sense?
The question posed that I started the discussion with was if he was a dictator.
I mean it's not like Hitler did the gassing himself. But rather as a leader ordering it. Doesn't diminish the responsibility. And nobody claimed he personally killed these people.
I think that's the thing we disagree about, how much control he had.
Okay you're just a deeply unserious person. A government modifying its own internally kept records for the purposes of propaganda? Baby brained premise chasing.
Thanks for the input
As if anything can get through to you
You seem very upset at me for some reason. What's got you so upset?
Your intellectual dishonesty and your ideological preference for fascism.
My preference for fascism? Interesting.
Also your vapid and time wasting comments
I'm terribly sorry about it all, you don't have to discuss things with me if you don't want to, you know. That'd be that.
okay