What is even the point that you're trying to make here. No law is a divinely inspired truth, these are legal contracts that societies make. The legal standing of Taiwan is crystal clear.

[–] pingveno@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago (1 children)

My point is that citing the UN's position is in a sense circular. The UN only holds that position because China holds that position, not because it actually reflects the reality on the ground for the past 70 years.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago (1 children)

In what way is it circular to cite international law, and how exactly does this not reflect the reality on the ground for the past 70 years?

[–] pingveno@lemmy.ml 3 points 2 years ago (1 children)

It is circular in that international law is that way only because China has muscled its way into making it that way. It's not that way because there's a basis in reality.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 years ago (2 children)

If anything, the fact that Taiwan acts as if its indepedent is US muscling its way into China as opposed to other way around. This would be akin to China pouring billions into Hawaii, Puerto Rico, or Texas for the past 70s years and fostering separatism there. This is an unprecedented level of interference in the affairs of another country. That's the basis for reality here.

[–] pingveno@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (3 children)

So you don't respect the views of the Taiwanese people? They are not allowed to think for themselves?

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 6 points 2 years ago (1 children)

That's a good question, why does US not let Taiwanese people think for themselves and spends billions on shaping public opinion there?

[–] pingveno@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

What billions to shape public opinion? Or are you referring to military aid, which has nothing to do with public opinion.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Military aid, political aid, media campaigns, and so on. NED is literally an arm of US government engaged in regime change operations around the globe.

[–] pingveno@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Ah yes the billions poured into Taiwan by NED. Now let's see, that's $461,785 in grants that include Taiwan somehow, then divide it by the population of Taiwan to get two pennies per person. I bet that's really going to move public opinion.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 years ago (1 children)

US has been propping up separatists and shaping opinion in Taiwan since the end of WW2. There certainly have been billions poured into this project over the past 70s years. The fact that you can't even bring yourself to acknowledge this simple fact makes any meaningful discussion on the topic impossible.

Why do you think US is spending all that effort on an island half way across the world from it. Do you seriously believe it's because US regime cares about wellbeing of the people there when it doesn't even give a shit about its own populace?

[–] pingveno@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

I still trust the people of Taiwan to think for themselves more than I trust the CPC and Xi to tell them what's best for them at gunpoint.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Living in US, one would think you'd be well aware of how easily people can be manipulated. Your MAGA movement accounts for roughly 30% of the population now, is that just people thinking for themselves in your opinion? Would you support MAGA movements trying to secede from your country or would you claim that your government should intervene in that scenario?

[–] pingveno@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

That's simply not a comparable scenario. MAGA folks are more numerous in certain areas, sure, but there isn't a MAGA government or region made entirely out of MAGA citizens. Comparing a political movement, even one the size of MAGA, with a sovereign government that has ruled over its now 23 million citizens for 70 years is a bad comparison.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 years ago (1 children)

MAGA movement certainly has these characteristics in a few states like Texas and Florida. In fact, Texas actually made noises about exiting the union after the last election. This sentiment is likely to keep growing in the coming years. Again, let's say a foreign government like China or Russia started pouring money into this movement, arming it, openly helping MAGA politicians get into office, and so on. You would consider this to be just American people thinking for themselves?

You're also making a false statement about the government in Taiwan. KMT has been the government in Taiwan for most of its history, and it was actually moving towards reunification in 2014. US ran a color revolution to prevent that. Were you not aware of this fact or were you intentionally misrepresenting the situation?

[–] PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml 3 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Again, let’s say a foreign government like China or Russia started pouring money into this movement,

Large numbers of people in US already seems to think it is: Dems say reps take money from Russia, and reps say dems take money from China. One could wonder how such banana republic is still keeping the world hegemony.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 3 points 2 years ago

Right, and I think this is a direct result of the whole American exceptionalism idea. Most people in US have been convinced that their system is perfect, and it's the best system possible. So, when the system starts failing it must be because of sabotage by external actors as opposed to inherent flaws in the system itself. Democrats blame the Russians and say that republicans are their puppets, while republicans blame the Chinese and say the same about democrats.

In the end, nobody is focusing on the actual problems US is facing and as the material conditions continue to deteriorate the animosity and recriminations escalate. This polarization and tribalism is now creating conditions ripe for a civil war or a violent civil unrest. January 6 riot was the first example of that, but it most certainly won't be the last.

Meanwhile, US hegemony is rapidly unravelling on the world stage where the cost of the empire is becoming too much of a burden now. Countries are increasingly finding ways to stand up to US system of oppression, and the economic war with Russia has greatly accelerated this process.

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[–] pingveno@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Oh, BTW with Hawaii, Puerto Rico, and Texas. Hawaii and Texas have no credible succession movements. China is welcome to waste billions. Puerto Rico is in the process of figuring out for itself what its status will be. If it chooses independence, it sounds like the US will respect that.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago

You keep framing this as if it's just between people in mainland China and Taiwan with no external factors involved. This is a false narrative that ignores the elephant in the room. US spends huge amounts of money influencing politics in other countries. If China or Russia spend comparable sums then they too could easily create secessionist movements in US. You get that right?

[–] Democracy@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago

I was with you until you showed you're just as biased as the other side in this thread.

US embargoed Cuba for not bending over. You think they will let go of Puerto Rico without dismantling their livelihoods and ruining their reputation one way or the other? That alone is going to sway public opinions out of fear. And US has been invading other countries without any basis for decades. You seem to forget all that.

Would you even see any credible secession movement if they control media the world over?

I don't think Taiwan is part of China but you took the US propaganda wholesale.