this post was submitted on 01 Nov 2023
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It was Arabs who did not accept those borders. They lost and Israel expanded.
What I have more of a problem with is the settlers in the WB and that seems to be Bibi's doing without much pushback from USA. Fascists gonna fasche.
They were never given a vote. The UN voted to take away the Palestinians' land, and the actual people living there weren't given a single fucking vote in the issue.
What vote? I wasn't talking about any election and neither was blazera (who correctly said Jews were given the land).
I was talking about the 6 day war. Great animation showing the history here https://youtu.be/m19F4IHTVGc/
Timeline:
Well... kind of, but not really, not exactly that land, and the result wasn't truly agreed upon by anyone.
That's in 1967. Israel wasn't "given" any land there, it used a provocation by Egypt in order to claim all of it (and have Egypt give thanks for not claiming all of Sinai too... for now).
There was also a lot of bribery and intimidation involved to get the vote to come out a certain way.
They were given the land by UN at the start of the partition. I want discussing whether it was just.
Yep, just as I said.
Didn't say it was dune in 1967. It was given by UN straight after WW2. I was being as brief as possible.
It seems we agree on everything except the following. Hopefully you can clarify for me please...
Not explicitly AFAIK. This is my understanding...
Arabs were not OK with the UN partition but Jews were. Jews therefore understood that would mean Arabs would annul the partition as soon as the Brits exited so they declared independence from the day of the exit but I cannot find any borders mentioned. Then the Arabs really did attack.
Do you know of any borders mentioned by Jews then? Did they state "we want to be observed of the Arab partitions?" Certainly that is how it ended up but was that the plan on Independence Day? Wikipedia is vague.
There is a funny tidbit on the Wikipedia page:
https://catalog.archives.gov.il/en/chapter/the-declaration-of-independence/
As for borders, by following the Declaration of Independence itself:
The UN resolution called for an economic union of "Israel and Palestine", which would imply that "Eretz-Israel" was supposed to mean the whole land of the "Mandatory Palestine".
Prior to that:
The British mandate was over the whole "Mandatory Palestine"... but the declaration talks about the State of Israel being "in Eretz-Israel", without specifying any explicit borders.
The "spirit" of the text can be interpreted as intended to follow the borders of the UN resolution... maybe.
Since the resolution clearly was not accepted by the Arab states, it would require some further analysis whether that means Israel is supposed to prioritize establishing an economic union of the whole land, or strictly follow the resolution.
MVP! Thanks.
So it sounds like the UN presumed the states would form a union (like the EU) without caring if the member states wanted it.
Arabs I think were not happy even with the initial borders since Israel were a smaller population but handed a larger land area than Arabs. Maybe some anti-semitism too but that disparity must have stung.
Israel was happy with the allotment and even with the union as long as they were the masters of the union. Islamophobia too perhaps.
Chicken and the egg. Each side had a reason to distrust the other and it has just been spiralling ever since.
Seems like Britain should have stayed on a few more years but were probably too tired after WW2.
I am mainly learning only now. Are you also researching as we go or have you already familiarized yourself with much of the detail? Either way I appreciate having someone who is polite to discuss this with.
Indeed, the UN expected a sort of conjoined two-state arrangement.
The problem with the Declaration of Independence, is that, not only it was signed before getting written, rising the question of whether should the notes, the speech, or the document crafted after the fact to be considered the "official" one... but also Israel still lacks a proper Constitution; it has a set of Basic Laws, the last one of which got approved in 2018, but it's expected more should follow, so it can still be seen as a "not fully established" state, making stuff up on the go.
Some of this stuff I've double checked, but most had already looked up before. One thing it would be interesting to know more about, are the nuances in the Hebrew text of the Declaration of Independence... but my knowledge of Hebrew barely goes as far as realizing that the English version is not a word for word translation.
Maybe by reading multiple translations you can at least narrow down to which the problematic passages are so then you could concentrate on them with a fluent Hebrew speaker.
I know one but it is hard to get him to stop once he gets started and he is right wing (I am left) so I don't want to listen to his preaching. Nevertheless if you give me a specific question I will ask.
The vote to create Israel in 1948
Why do i keep hearing it described like losing a game? Zionists invaded, murdered, and exiled palestinians from their land, that should "win" them nothing but opposition from the international community, same as happening with Russias invasion of Ukraine.
What do you mean by "it"?
I thought we were talking specifically about changes to the borders of what was given to them (irresponsibly?) by the Allies after WW2.
The 6 day war in 1967 was initiated by surrounding Arab countries. Israel won that war and expanded into the Sinai and Gaza (Egypt), Golan Heights (Syria), West Bank and East Jerusalem (Jordan). They didn't initiate the expansion. They then returned the Sinai to Egypt.
Admittedly after that they did take more without provocation. The chipping away with settlements is happening to this very day.
I just rewatched the above video in order to spell out the details. It is all new to me. Have a look yourself if you are genuinely interested in discussing the conflict. It really is well made and easy to follow (I dunno if there are errors though).
Nothing was ever given to them, only taken. They were living there already. They did not consent to being murdered and evicted from where they lived, and predictably they fought against it. That they lost against a much larger, internationally backed army invading their land doesnt exactly persuade me that they should lose their right to living there.
Who is "them"? I was talking about the land given to Jews by the colonisers: England and France.
The 6 day war had a larger army on the Arab side. I dunno how much financial backing Israel had from USA or how it compared with the backing (if any) by the Arab oil states and I doubt you know or care either.
I am trying to learn here, but you just insist on lazy mud slinging. Blocking you.
You and the rest of the world are blocking out the truth, not able to defend the indefensible actions of Israel.