As someone who has used linux for >25 years and has experienced the madness of SysV init scripts for decades (well, only two, but the plural is still technically correct; the best kind of correct), I have a very hard time to take people who make posts like these serious.
this post was submitted on 25 Aug 2023
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There are people like you, and then there are people who refuse to learn new things.
I'm like you, good old init in the 90s on Linux or BSD , we had init, inetd, and like 10 process, no X, it was cool and easy. Init and rc started becoming bloated and complicated sometimes. I don't hate systemd, it does its thing right, I used Ubuntu for years and systemd without issue. Now I'm using MX that supports both, best of both world.
Ok but nowadays there are alternatives to systemd (OpenRC, runit). Not necessarily better, just alternatives. No SysV init involved.
how dare you criticize smystemD, I spent 20 years having to write startup scripts in assembly with a quill and feather and i can tell you that sistem_d is literally life changing, I stopped drinking an got out of prison ever since arch implemented it
Get out of the dark ages, real geeks use mechanical pencils! 😆
SystemD is life-changing all right, just not in a good way. I keep fighting with it though because I really like Debian.
Debian will happily use sysvinit. It's easiest to just switch to it at install time, but you can do afterwards too: Init
I've veen using it on desktops, laptops and servers without issue.
The more people who switch, the clearer the message that this choice needs to be maintained.
I've used that before but generally just go with direct installations now instead of fighting it. However I have to wonder, if this is still a thing that actually works correctly in Debian, then why is Devuan a thing? There must be a difference in maintenance between them to justify the labor?
I think Devuan split when it was still uncertain whether Debian would have init freedom. I'm running Xfce4, but I believe there were issues with Gnome being tightly tied to SystemD on Debian. It looks like that's improving, but that Devuan has it all working. I guess the other issue is that Debian still don't guarantee init freedom, whereas Devuan does.
It's such a weird state of things. It seems like if the debian devs weren't so bone-headed they would just accept that here are some people (some who are previous debian devs themselves) willing to put forth the effort to allow people to have a choice. Debian itself would thrive from the additional choices but instead they seem to want to dictate to everyone else what path is right for them, and that sounds an awful lot like the Ubuntu way.
Oh absolutely. I resent SystemD more for the damage it did to the community than the boneheaded design decisions and buggy code.
The ridiculous part is that the Debian devs are putting in some effort to keep multiple init systems working, they're just not talking about it. As you say, people knowing about it would help Debian thrive.
At this point I don't think it really matter who thinks which system is better. The technical aspects are irrelevant as long as they work in a manner that completes the tasks. I certainly find no difference in boot times between systems that were loaded up with older releases pre-systemD, and systems that were freshly installed with systemD as the only init. Oddly I DID find one hell of a difference on a raspberry pi when I installed raspbian with systemD and it took nearly a minute and a half to boot, then I converted it to sysV and it booted in 15 seconds. These days most of the boot times I pay attention to, however, are on bare-metal servers which are now taking five freaking minutes just to get up to grub, so the difference of a minute is OS boot time is now completely meaningless.
They didn't criticize systemd though...
systemd is bloat, madness …
this pile of crap is threatening everything
Those aren't criticisms.
Must be the fact that I am non native English speaker confusing me into thinking they are criticisms. Could you elaborate what are those
Well it doesn’t have actual arguments but you get the idea that they hate it
Yeah, I do get that they hate it, but that's not a criticism.
Repeating false statements doesn't make them true. fyi: that's a criticism of your comments ;-)
You can criticise SystemD for a bunch of things but that shit fucking works like a charm and removes so much of the pain managing your init system. The journaling, the parallel unit startup, the timers, the unit files are so much easier to manage now that it used to be.
I've had more problems with SystemD bugs than I've ever had with other init systems (and I've used a few). The worst part is that it's such a tangled mess that tries to take over everything whuch makes it difficult to isolate and remove the broken part. That, and so much of the design of it is just ridiculous that making it do what's needed when you need anything but the most basic setup is painful. I've had all sorts of issues, but one of the recent ones that really bit me was the automounter. It turns out that if it hits certain issues it'll just return the empty mount point, rather than preventing access when the filesystem isn't there.
Try using Windows..