this post was submitted on 15 Aug 2023
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submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by ram@lemmy.ca to c/technology
 

Context^piped^^-^^invidious^^-^^lemmy^

There won't be a big WAN Show segment about this or anything. Most of what I have to say, I've already said, and I've done so privately.
To Steve, I expressed my disappointment that he didn't go through proper journalistic practices in creating this piece. He has my email and number (along with numerous other members of our team) and could have asked me for context that may have proven to be valuable (like the fact that we didn't 'sell' the monoblock, but rather auctioned it for charity due to a miscommunication... AND the fact that while we haven't sent payment yet, we have already agreed to compensate Billet Labs for the cost of their prototype). There are other issues, but I've told him that I won't be drawn into a public sniping match over this and that I'll be continuing to move forward in good faith as part of 'Team Media'. When/if he's ready to do so again I'll be ready.
To my team (and my CEO's team, but realistically I was at the helm for all of these errors, so I need to own it), I stressed the importance of diligence in our work because there are so many eyes on us. We are going through some growing pains - we've been very public about them in the interest of transparency - and it's clear we have some work to do on internal processes and communication. We have already been doing a lot of work internally to clean up our processes, but these things take time. Rome wasn't built in a day, but that's no excuse for sloppiness.
Now, for my community, all I can say is the same things I always say. We know that we're not perfect. We wear our imperfection on our sleeves in the interest of ensuring that we stay accountable to you. But it's sad and unfortunate when this transparency gets warped into a bad thing. The Labs team is hard at work hard creating processes and tools to generate data that will benefit all consumers - a work in progress that is very much not done and that we've communicated needs to be treated as such. Do we have notes under some videos? Yes. Is it because we are striving for transparency/improvement? Yeah... What we're doing hasn't been in many years, if ever.. and we would make a much larger correction if the circumstances merited it. Listing the wrong amount of cache on a table for a CPU review is sloppy, but given that our conclusions are drawn based on our testing, not the spec sheet, it doesn't materially change the recommendation. That doesn't mean these things don't matter. We've set KPIs for our writing/labs team around accuracy, and we are continually installing new checks and balances to ensure that things continue to get better. If you haven't seen the improvement, frankly I wonder if you're really looking for it... The thoroughness that we managed on our last handful of GPU videos is getting really incredible given the limited time we have for these embargoes. I'm REALLY excited about what the future will hold.
With all of that said, I still disagree that the Billet Labs video (not the situation with the return, which I've already addressed above) is an 'accuracy' issue. It's more like I just read the room wrong. We COULD have re-tested it with perfect accuracy, but to do so PROPERLY - accounting for which cases it could be installed in (none) and which radiators it would be plumbed with (again... mystery) would have been impossible... and also didn't affect the conclusion of the video... OR SO I THOUGHT...
I wanted to evaluate it as a product, and as a product, IF it could manage to compete with the temperatures of the highest end blocks on the planet, it still wouldn't make sense to buy... so from my point of view, re-testing it and finding out that yes, it did in fact run cooler made no difference to the conclusion, so it didn't really make a difference.
Adam and I were talking about this today. He advocated for re-testing it regardless of how non-viable it was as a product at the time and I think he expressed really well today why it mattered. It was like making a video about a supercar. It doesn't mater if no one watching will buy it. They just wanna see it rip. I missed that, but it wasn't because I didn't care about the consumer.. it was because I was so focused on how this product impacted a potential buyer. Either way, clearly my bad, but my intention was never to harm Billet Labs. I specifically called out their incredible machining skills because I wanted to see them create something with a viable market for it and was hoping others would appreciate the fineness of the craftsmanship even if the product was impractical. I still hope they move forward building something else because they obviously have talent and I've watched countless niche water cooling vendors come and go. It's an astonishingly unforgiving market.
Either way, I'm sorry I got the community's priorities mixed-up on this one, and that we didn't show the Billet in the best light. Our intention wasn't to hurt anyone. We wanted no one to buy it (because it's an egregious waste of money no matter what temps it runs at) and we wanted Billet to make something marketable (so they can, y'know, eat).
With all of this in mind, it saddens me how quickly the pitchforks were raised over this. It also comes across a touch hypocritical when some basic due diligence could have helped clarify much of it. I have a LONG history of meeting issues head on and I've never been afraid to answer questions, which lands me in hot water regularly, but helps keep me in tune with my peers and with the community. The only reason I can think of not to ask me is because my honest response might be inconvenient.
We can test that... with this post. Will the "It was a mistake (a bad one, but a mistake) and they're taking care of it" reality manage to have the same reach? Let's see if anyone actually wants to know what happened. I hope so, but it's been disheartening seeing how many people were willing to jump on us here. Believe it or not, I'm a real person and so is the rest of my team. We are trying our best, and if what we were doing was easy, everyone would do it. Today sucks.
Thanks for reading this.^[https://linustechtips.com/topic/1526180-gamers-nexus-alleges-lmg-has-insufficient-ethics-and-integrity/page/16/#comment-16078641; archive]

Check LinusTech's profile for further discussion and comments he's had.^[https://linustechtips.com/profile/3-linustech/; archive]

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[–] Sami@lemmy.zip 126 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

we didn’t ‘sell’ the monoblock, but rather auctioned it for charity due to a miscommunication

I don't think you're making the point you think you're making

[–] SpathiFwiffo@kbin.social 60 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Also, Linus is technically wrong on several counts. GN said where it was sold (at an event auction).

also auction == sell: webster definition of Auction: "a sale of property to the highest bidder"

[–] jarfil 24 points 1 year ago

GN even starts by saying it was "auctioned", only later it says it was sold at an auction.

If that's how Linus is going to defend "proper journalistic practice", by ignoring the material he's criticizing, then he's lost his North.

[–] ForthEorlingas@lemmy.ca 26 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Absolutely no excuse that this happened, but I believe the point he is trying to make is that they didn't make any money on it. Still a shitty thing to let happen, and it should simply never have happened at all, but it's still better than if they had sold it and made a profit, I guess.

[–] hakase@lemm.ee 67 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That point didn't need to be made in the first place because Steve already specifically noted that it was auctioned for charity in his video.

To me, this is just evidence that Linus didn't even watch the video.

[–] unknown_shellfish@kbin.social 23 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Why would he? You can get most of a videos information by just reading the comments. And those probably all said he sold it.

Wow. I felt so stupid just writing this. I still cant believe he unironically says shit like this

[–] pollen 28 points 1 year ago

Well, not watching the video would mean not doing due diligence, which would be on-brand for him.

[–] nerdschleife@lemm.ee 39 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

The point isn't the profit, the point is that a new, maybe secret prototype could have fallen into competitors hands. LMG made a thousand on it? The small, indepedent company that made the water block just lost their main product

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[–] Tordoc 124 points 1 year ago (5 children)

When organizations mess up, why is their first response to the critique to say "Why didn't you come to us first?" when they really mean "Why did you make this public so we actually have to do something?"

I get really frustrated with the response because it doesn't come across as a company actually interested in improving, but just throwing accusations back and trying to beg off the responsibility of actually holding themselves accountable.

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[–] pAceMaker@lemmy.ml 99 points 1 year ago (8 children)

“my intention was never to harm Billet Labs”

Kid, you said “nobody should buy it”

[–] AnonymousLlama@kbin.social 62 points 1 year ago

I think the end conclusion wasn't great. He said

It wouldn't matter if it dropped 20 degrees

It absolutely would matter. Just like how a 4090 costs an absurdly high amount but people will still buy it. For the right person getting 20 degrees knocked off might be worthwhile regardless of how expensive it is.

[–] ThunderingJerboa@kbin.social 27 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I mean it is a $800/900+ waterblock. No reasonable consumer should buy it. Its a cool project to show Billet Lab's ability to fabricate and mill custom parts but this is such a niche thing.

[–] SlovenianSocket@lemmy.ca 43 points 1 year ago (4 children)

The average consumer wouldn’t buy a block to begin with. I know quite a few guys that have spent thousands on their hardline setups, adding another $1000 CAD is a drop in the bucket to them. There is a market for it, just not a large one

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[–] RickRussell_CA 88 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

we didn’t ‘sell’ the monoblock, but rather auctioned it for charity

Jesus. It doesn't matter whether you sold it or auctioned it. It doesn't matter if it was for charity. What matters is that IT WAS A ONE-OF-A-KIND PROTOTYPE THAT DIDN'T BELONG TO YOU AND YOU AGREED TO RETURN IT (and the RTX3090 they sent with it), and you didn't do what you promised.

Everything wrong with LTT is summed up in this response. Instead of going to the company's CEO and composing a response on behalf of the company, we get a bunch of over-personalized complaints about hurt feelings and imperfection, fired off only 3 hours after the GN video, that make it 100% clear this is all about Linus' personality rather than a dispassionate review of the facts.

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[–] spaduf@lemmy.blahaj.zone 83 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Not a great look here overall. Was definitely hoping they would take a little bit more accountability. The solution seems simple. Spend less money on egregiously expensive equipment and spend more money on making sure things are accurate before they go out the door.

[–] infinitevalence@discuss.online 56 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think that is the most frustrating part, is the main criticism is take time, get it right, and that seems to be something that Linus totally ignored in his response.

He is laser focused on the criticism of a single video and missing the greater concern being raised.

[–] neshura@bookwormstory.social 38 points 1 year ago

This read more like a "We did nothing wrong. And what we did do wrong we already discovered ourselves and have been working to improve. And those self improvements are not showing an effect because we just need more time. But I promise we try to be better. Please just ignore that the quality hasn't improved recently and believe me." than a "We done fucked up, gonna have to see how to fix this. Will report back with an action plan to make sure this doesn't happen again once we have it laid out"

Very disappointed in Linus here, haven't been watching them recently but it's sad to see him fall to what seems to be greed.

[–] HarkMahlberg@kbin.social 75 points 1 year ago (9 children)

How am I not surprised this is how he would respond. This is the same guy who said "AdBlock is piracy," he doubles down on every shitty take he has.

[–] BruceTwarzen@kbin.social 36 points 1 year ago (10 children)

I still don't get his fame and how deeply embedded ge is in the pc/gaming community.
Haha he's so funny because he drops expensive things and pushes expensive products.

[–] Satan 18 points 1 year ago (6 children)

He's the CEO of Linux, it's even named after him.

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[–] shadow@lemmy.sdf.org 74 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Man, I've had a feeling that LTT and LMG's content more generally has been less and less about consumers and more about selling things to people. I guess it's called "advertainment" - but it's just so intolerable now. I don't feel connected to, or like any of the content is relevant anymore to a regular person.

When your employees are complaining that they can't create the content to the standard they want to because of time, it really sounds like a management problem. One they Linus seems determined to ignore so that they can keep raking in big sponsorships and sales of their overpriced over hyped merch so they can buy ever bigger mansions.

The whole tone of the enterprise is off and the vibes are bad.

[–] amju_wolf@pawb.social 29 points 1 year ago (1 children)

One they Linus seems determined to ignore so that they can keep raking in big sponsorships and sales of their overpriced over hyped merch so they can buy ever bigger mansions.

I don't think it's that bad; Linus' heart seems to be in the right place but his ego and occasional lack of self-awareness does definitely hurt at least the image. But that's something the new CEO can actually fix, potentially.

As for the need to make money and churn out content, I kinda get the need; he probably feels immense pressure because in order to sustain 100+ people they do actually need to put out a shittin of content and can't really take a break.

With that being said issues like these should be a very strong signal that change needs to happen, and dismissing people's concerns and not being able to put his ego aside will hurt them a lot if this continues.

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[–] ulkesh 57 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Linus has always struck me as someone who thinks he knows what he's talking about, acts like he does, and can sell it. When, in fact, he's nothing but veneer on top of a moron. This, to me, proves it. I'm so glad I never got caught up in his cult of personality.

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[–] Rentlar 56 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Edit note: The recent Twitter thread from the former employee eclipses either of the situations in this comment in terms of needing response/corroboration. I think it largely stems from the same problem: overwork and mismanagement.


The Billet situation appears to be a genuine fuckup that LMG has to make right with them, but outside of that I don't care tbh.

The data integrity situation is the one that needs to be properly addressed for the sake of their channel.


Sorry Linus, I'm not buying the "you should have told us" line. The fact that you and your staff were well aware of the problems of rushing to release content (to the point of releasing public video on it), means it's not that people weren't telling you.

You have two basic options to fix it.

Option A: You need more staff to vet the accuracy and more hosts to have time to cut/re-shoot parts that were incorrect. Clearly you and your staff each have too much on your plate.

Option B: You need to slow the rate of your content releasing right down, to ensure you can double and triple check benchmarks, staff that bring up concerns aren't brushed off or put in a footnote/comment.


GN or anyone could tell LMG this, but especially option B isn't something a company with a "growth-mindset" would want to hear.

[–] Clav64@lemmy.ml 38 points 1 year ago (5 children)

The communication re: the auction of the billet product appears to be a genuine fuck up, and LMG needs to do as much as it can to own that.

The review, and subsequent doubling down on WAN of [sic] "do not buy this product" , however, is down right negligent. Billet are a start up and every review or demo of their product is absolutely critical to their success. To say "we want you to eat" is borderline offensive. LMG must recognise the majority who watch LTT are often casual and will forever just remember "Linus said no" and not question it further.

While I commend the attitude of not being drawn into an online pissing contest with GN, I think the least they could do is remove the video, retest and evaluate, and offer a sincere apology for the previous efforts.

Everything else is a QC issue. Do less with more, and you won't have to spend so much time putting out very public fires such as this.

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[–] moonsnotreal@lemmy.blahaj.zone 53 points 1 year ago (2 children)

He just uses the same excuses that GN talks about being issues in the video. It would not be "impossible" to test the water block properly, he just doesn't want to spend money to make proper journalism.

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[–] sverit@feddit.de 41 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

We know that we’re not perfect. We wear our imperfection on our sleeves in the interest of ensuring that we stay accountable to you. But it’s sad and unfortunate when this transparency gets warped into a bad thing.

Yeah, well, that’s one of the main issues addressed in this video: You are not transparent about this, when you swap out videos without notice or bury corrections in a non-pinned comment.

Listing the wrong amount of cache on a table for a CPU review is sloppy, but given that our conclusions are drawn based on our testing, not the spec sheet, it doesn’t materially change the recommendation.

If the listing is wrong, who guarantees the lab tests on which the conclusion is based on are not wrong?

The thoroughness that we managed on our last handful of GPU videos is getting really incredible given the limited time we have for these embargoes.

Take the time it needs to produce correct reviews then. Who wants fast but false results?

Edit: Follow up on Linus' response from GN: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3byz3txpso

[–] fiah@discuss.tchncs.de 32 points 1 year ago (1 children)

not a good look, Linus. If he were actually serious about handling mistakes and issues head-on, none of this would've happened because he would've publicly corrected his employee when he claimed their testing methods are superior to others'

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[–] AnonymousLlama@kbin.social 31 points 1 year ago

The critiques that Steve laid out in this video were perfectly fine, highlighting the shortcomings of LMG when it comes to actually reviewing content (which is what they're pivoting to, away from 100% entertainment content). A typical Linus arrogant take where he'll learn nothing.

[–] shinjiikarus@mylem.eu 28 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Which meaningless drama did I miss here?

[–] Moonrise2473@feddit.it 55 points 1 year ago (2 children)

In a video on a different channel (not from Linus media group) a LTT employee criticized other YouTubers like gamers Nexus saying they're not as thorough as them, so gamers Nexus made a 40 minutes video (not monetized, Linus wouldn't have done that) with a compilation of some of the biggest errors LTT made in the last year.

Mostly the issues that were pointed out is that

  1. After being sent a prototype of a water-cooling block that will be on sale in November 2023, he didn't follow the instructions and attempted to install it on a wrong GPU, and that meant there would be a 1 mm gap between the die and the block and wouldn't work at all. The conclusion of that video was that it was a shitty product and nobody should buy it. For a start-up with 2 people is a death sentence. Later in his hours long wan show (that I never see because too long) he doubles down saying "why I should spend $500 in salaries to test it with the right equipment, it's a shitty product and nobody should buy it". The sample was not returned even if it was requested back and instead they sold it at an auction

  2. For a mouse review they said it had terrible gliding and it was awful, but they didn't RTFM and didn't remove a protective film on the bottom (but IMHO it should arrive to the customer without protective films)

  3. Various instances of the hosts that says something but then it's corrected by just an asterisk on the screen

  4. Various instances of clearly wrong tests (coolers that suddenly in a single test perform significantly worse than the average, newer GPU models that run much faster than the average)

And he didn't point another problem with a video published a few hours earlier: LTT reviewed a virus removal Stick and the conclusion was that even if the ads are misleading and the website is scammy, the product itself isn't that bad. But he tested on a diy computer. Any prebuilt computer released in the last two years has secureboot and automatic bitlocker encryption with keys in the Microsoft account, meaning that this antivirus removal USB drive wouldn't even boot, and if it could, it couldn't access any file on the computer

[–] Clav64@lemmy.ml 24 points 1 year ago

Any prebuilt computer released in the last two years has secureboot and automatic bitlocker encryption with keys in the Microsoft account, meaning that this antivirus removal USB drive wouldn't even boot, and if it could, it couldn't access any file on the computer

I was disappointed this issue was not addressed at all during its review. The type of person this product is aimed at wouldn't have a clue this was potentially the case.

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[–] pemmykins 34 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Linus is responding to this video from Gamers Nexus: https://youtu.be/FGW3TPytTjc

It’s a long video, but the tl;dr is that LTT are getting sloppy in their reviews, making mistakes, and not fixing them in a clear manner. Additionally, there are some larger issues around a recent review of a gpu heatsink.

[–] SquishyPandaDev@yiffit.net 24 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

there are some larger issues around a recent review of a gpu heatsink.

Worse than that. LMG may have killed the startup behind the GPU water block. They sold off their one and only functioning prototype, despite being asked to return it before they sold it. This could result in the block being cloned by a competitor

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[–] SquishyPandaDev@yiffit.net 27 points 1 year ago

Fuck you Linus. Your actions and your company's actions might have resulted in the death of startup because you didn't like the product and think people shouldn't buy it. You don't get to just apologize and give some money out and think that makes it okay. You should be horrified that something like this could happened. You should be bending your self over backwards, doing everything you can do to ensure that this doesn't happen again. Instead you put out this dumb shit

[–] fox_the_apprentice@lemmynsfw.com 23 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

GN has made a section on this at the start of their HW News video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3byz3txpso

I don't see that already posted here. Of particular note is that Linus lied regarding the Billet Labs repayment agreement. Otherwise, I'll let Steve speak for himself.

[–] Four_lights77@lemm.ee 22 points 1 year ago

I mean the answer here is simple. Listen to your employees. They are your content, Linus.

[–] Wahots@pawb.social 19 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Still kinda bummed on his response. I don't think they can afford to slow down on video released owing to their large teams now. It just doesn't feel sustainable anymore. I stopped watching when their quality started declining

[–] ken27238 23 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Oh it gets better, in a follow up video GN stated that LMG didn't reach out to Billet about compensating them until AFTER the GN video was published.

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[–] snowbell 19 points 1 year ago (10 children)

We need "Linus Responds to GN Responding to Linus Responding to The Problem with LMG" 🍿

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