this post was submitted on 12 Aug 2023
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Web Environment Integrity: What's Going On? (openwebdefenders.org)
submitted 1 year ago by alvanrahimli@lemmy.ml to c/programming@programming.dev
33 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 

We (me with a friend) created this page https://openwebdefenders.org and planning to create banners for websites that may want to inform their users on what's going on.

If anyone wants to contribute somehow or have other ideas I would be happy to discuss on https://github.com/openwebdefenders/web/issues

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[–] starman@programming.dev 34 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

Do you use browsers other than the mainstream ones like Chrome or Firefox? Third-party browsers, especially those that prioritize privacy or offer unique features, might be labeled “untrusted,” limiting your browsing experience.

This suggests that firefox will be trusted, because it's mainstream, which is not true, because Mozilla won't implement WEI, and therefore malicious websites won't be able to verify "environment integrity"

Besides that, nice website and thanks for your efforts on fighting with WEI.

[–] Paradoxvoid@aussie.zone 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I'd also argue Firefox is hardly mainstream at ~3% usage. Edge would be a better replacement given it comes with every Windows install (and many corporate environments don't allow using an alternative).

[–] Faresh@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

It is only used by 3%!? Wasn't it at around 30% some years ago (not counting netscape)? This comes really as a surprise to me because in my circles even around half of non-tech inclined windows users use firefox.

Why did it lose so many users?

[–] sip@programming.dev 1 points 1 year ago

google pr

[–] sip@programming.dev 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

edge is chrome

[–] Coehl@programming.dev 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Yes. But what kind of person needs to be told this stuff? The kind of person that already knows about WEI and that most mainstream browsers are chrome based except ff?

No. This message, then, isn't for you is it? Normal folks out there will hear that chrome is the issue and they'll switch to edge. The suggestion, while not technically accurate, achieves the goal much more efficiently.

Stop thinking like everything has a boolean result.

[–] Mikina@programming.dev 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Mozilla won’t implement WEI

They are going to fight against WEI. Tooth and nails, for our sakes!

Just like they did with EME, the closed source video DRM in 2014. By being deeply concerned with the direction the web is going, and definitely against it, but...

We face a choice between a feature our users want and the degree to which that feature can be built to embody user control and privacy.

With most competing browsers and the content industry embracing the W3C EME specification, Mozilla has little choice but to implement EME as well so our users can continue to access all content they want to enjoy.

Despite our dislike of DRM, we have come to believe Firefox needs to provide a mechanism for people to watch DRM-controlled content.

DRM requires closed systems to operate as currently required and is designed to remove user control, so Mozilla is taking steps to find alternative solutions to DRM. But Mozilla also believes that until an alternative system is in place, Firefox users should be able to choose whether to interact with DRM in order to watch streaming videos in the browser.

https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/drm-and-the-challenge-of-serving-users/

https://hacks.mozilla.org/2014/05/reconciling-mozillas-mission-and-w3c-eme/

[–] colorado@programming.dev 4 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I am not convinced Mozilla will refuse to implement WEI when push comes to shove. Mozilla already supports Netflix playback with drm, right?

[–] starman@programming.dev 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Take a look at this

[–] colorado@programming.dev 1 points 1 year ago

I am glad to be proven wrong. Thank you for the link.

[–] Haui@discuss.tchncs.de 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

But isn’t it quite the jump from mozilla accepting drm from a service in an indistry that has invented drm to them accepting a blanket drm for the web? I think it’s kind of not guilty until proven for mozilla. They have so far (to my knowledge) not done anything very anti consumer.

[–] colorado@programming.dev 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm just saying we can't just trust Mozilla leadership will do the right thing...

[–] Haui@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Nah, I say we don’t run around villainizing everyone and stay with thos who fucked us over in the past. Otherwise we can trust exactly no one.

[–] colorado@programming.dev 1 points 1 year ago

That's exactly right. Don't blindly trust anyone. Hold them accountable.

[–] sip@programming.dev 2 points 1 year ago

web is not movies and tv shows.

[–] glad_cat@lemmy.sdf.org 17 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Change the sentence "Do you use browsers other than the mainstream ones like Chrome or Firefox" because Firefox is already a very small third-party browser.

[–] Efwis@lemmy.zip 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

How is Firefox a small 3rd party browser? FF is the basis for browsers like libreoffice, icewolf etc.. it is not 3rd party, it is first party like chrome, opera and safari. Actually if you want to go that far, chrome actually started off as a fork of opera

[–] glad_cat@lemmy.sdf.org 12 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Firefox is used by less than 3% of the users, it should not be used in this sentence. Also I'm not sure they'll implement the integrity thing, which is another issue.

[–] Efwis@lemmy.zip 4 points 1 year ago

I agree Firefox doesn’t have a large share of the browsers, but if you are basing it on user share then the only mainstream browsers are safari and chrome. However, the term third party is generally utilized as a fork of a primary access point or is the access point via another means, even if it’s original.

For example, the apps to access lemmy are third party as they are not created by the original devs for lemmy. In this argument FF is classified as first party not third.

Don’t get me wrong I understood what you were trying to say, but based on your reply then pretty much chrome would be the only mainstream browser.

[–] starman@programming.dev 4 points 1 year ago

They won't implement this, see this comment on github

[–] sip@programming.dev 1 points 1 year ago

Firefox had over 30% some time ago and it still is to spec, often more than chrome is.

[–] alvanrahimli@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I understand what glad_cat means, and they are kinda correct. On the other hand, FF (at least, for now) won't be implementing this change.

[–] Efwis@lemmy.zip 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I do too, but his reasoning is flawed. Based on his reasoning that would be saying Lemmy is a third party site because it doesn’t have the user share that Reddit does.

Microsoft’s edge browser is a fork of chromium, it’s not even first party anymore, like IE was.

[–] alvanrahimli@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This is a nice analogy. Thanks 👍

[–] Efwis@lemmy.zip 1 points 1 year ago

You’re welcome

[–] alvanrahimli@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago

Thanks for pointing out. Will definitely consider your feedback!

[–] eth0p@iusearchlinux.fyi 17 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Thank you for making an informative and non-alarmist website around the topic of Web Environment Integrity.

I've seen (and being downvoted for arguing against) so many articles, posts, and comments taking a sensationalized approach to the discussion around it, and it's nice to finally see some genuine and wholly factual coverage of it.

I really can't understate how much I appreciate your efforts towards ethical reporting here. You guys don't use alarm words like "DRM," and you went through the effort of actually explaining both what WEI does and how it poses a risk for the open web. Nothing clickybaity, ragebaity, and you don't frame it dishonesty. Just a good, objective description of what it is in its current form and how that could be changed to everything people are worried about.

Is there anything that someone like me could help contribute with? It seems like our goals (informing users without inciting them, so they can create useful feedback without FUD and misinformation) align, and I'd love to help out any way I can. I read the (at the time incomplete) specs and explainer for WEI, and I could probably write a couple of paragraphs going over what they promised or omitted. If you check my post history, I also have a couple of my own example of how the WEI spec could be abused to harm users.

[–] alvanrahimli@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago

Hi. Thanks a lot for your kind words and enthusiasm!

We are currently thinking about this "movement" and trying to plan stuff. If you have something on your mind, you are more than welcomed to create an issue.

I really appreciate your passion on this matter, and will kindly contact you after we structure stuff on our minds. Cheers!

[–] DaaftRaaft@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You have some duplicated paragraphs on the page, otherwise, appreciate the effort in raising awareness!

[–] alvanrahimli@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago

Can you please specify which ones do you mean?

[–] Quereller@lemmy.one 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I don't know about web environment integrity or where this will lead but I remember the time trusted computing and TPMs came up. At this time, people were really scared that this is the end of Linux (on PC). Today, I use secure boot (with my MOK) on my consumer distro just fine.

[–] argv_minus_one 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Had Trusted Computing happened as it was originally envisioned, you wouldn't be. You'd be using Windows because that's the only operating system you'd be allowed to use.

And now here we are again, facing down a plot to extinguish FOSS competition under the guise of security. Yes, it's happened before, but that doesn't mean the outcome is guaranteed to be as favorable as it was last time.

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[–] zemja@programming.dev 2 points 1 year ago

I like this, but I would appreciate a definition of "the web environment" somewhere near the top.