It's such a bizarre scenario, given Luxon isn't popular, what exactly are people choosing National for? Their... "Policies"? I could understand if people were just swayed by the identity politics of it all, even if I think that's a bit shallow, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
this post was submitted on 02 Aug 2023
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A lot of people, myself included, don't want to see what type of damage TPM could cause if they have a seat at the table, and won't vote for either three as a result.
I also do like some of National's policies, the second Terrace and Mt Vic tunnels are badly needed, for example.
So your decision is based on racism.
What damage do you expect Te Pāti Māori to do if they get a seat at the table?
Racially divisive policies, in particular co governance.
Out of curiosity, do you know that co-governance is already being used in many places right? For example the governance of the Waikato river is a co-governance model. There have been no issues that I know of, and everything runs smoothly.
What exactly is your fear with regards to co-governance?
My view is that co governance is valid where natural resources are concerned, but it should never be used when man made infrastructure is concerned.
The proposed model, where Iwi have a 50% say, is also rather unprecedented.
It's just a bad idea all around.
They don't really have 50% say. I can only speak to the proposal with 3 waters, but it was not the governing body that had 50% Iwi input. The group of experts that chose those who form the governing body, which was to be done on based on merit as usual, was shared between Iwi and non-iwi. This treats Iwi as an form of 'expert', by acknowledging they are the original caretakers of the land.
I cannot claim certainty of Te Tiriti o Waitangi, as I am not an expert, but I also believe it was a stipulation to ensure Māori retained control/governorship over certain aspects of the land, including waterways.
ETA: I want to also make it clear I am not defending or endorsing TPM btw, just that I don't reject them solely based on the ideas around co-governance.
The difference between them having 50% say, and having 50% say in the board is mere pedantry, in my view. Of course they will appoint people who will represent their views and interests.
I also don't see what any of this has to do with decisions regarding man made infrastructure, these are not waterways we're talking about, but built infrastructure.
The difference between them having 50% say, and having 50% say in the board is mere pedantry, in my view. Of course they will appoint people who will represent their views and interests.
But they cannot appoint anything by themselves. The committee needs to agree. They just have a voice at the table, and equal voice.
I also don't see what any of this has to do with decisions regarding man made infrastructure, these are not waterways we're talking about, but built infrastructure.
What infrastructure are you concerned about? If you are talking about the water infrastructure, then my counter argument is - all water flows into the waterways eventually. What happens upstream affects those downstream, so why shouldn't they have a say?
I guess my view is this: it doesn't bother me if we follow Te Tiriti, and it also doesn't bother me if we extend those rights upstream. I do not think that these boards are going to start chucking white folks in jail or anything. What exactly do you think they might so that is "racially bases"?
It's more that they will likely find a way to direct projects towards Iwi owned companies, or find another way to work things to their advantage. The whole system is ripe for abuse.
Iwi deserve a say on consents to take and discharge water, what happens between the two should be none of their business. Their individual members, assuming they are ratepayers, will of course have a say.
Huh, my comment didn't take by the looks of it.
Tl;Dr I said thanks for the discussion, this is a valid concern, and while I'm not worried I get why it should be addressed.
I can see both your comments.
Lemmy doesn't seem to like long comment chains for some reason.
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I really wish we had a proper progressive party again.
The right bloc just ain't it. Labour is fighting too hard for the centre.
For all the disappointment we have for Labour not being progressive enough, National and Act oppose and want to take in the opposite direction.
The Greens have been where progressive policy is at for 20 years and deserve support imo. What they put up becomes Labour policy within 10 years or so
Pretty much why I've voted for the greens last few times. But they're still missing what Jim Andertons Progressive party was.
By all rights, I should be a staunch Labour Party supporter, they are supposed to be the party of the working class, after all. And their progressive policies around reproductive rights I support, as well as gay marriage etc.
But they've just lost their way in my view.
Labour has done a lot for unions while in office.
What's the margin of error.
All these movements seem to be within a reasonable margin of error.