this post was submitted on 13 Jun 2023
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Relaxed section for discussion and debate that doesn't fit anywhere else. Whether it's advice, how your week is going, a link that's at the back of your mind, or something like that, it can likely go here.


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submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by bermuda to c/chat
 

I know you all who have been here longer than 3 days are probably sick of the whole "leaving reddit" post trend here, but I figured this would be a good thing to talk about because I didn't really see it mentioned too much. A lot of people have spoken on here about poor moderation, the whole API debacle, a sort of downward cycle in terms of content quality etc. Plus, when I did bring these things up on my now-deleted reddit account, people mostly resorted to the whole "You hate capitalism yet you exist in it" argument. I also wrote a sort of summary for this in my application, so whoever read my application doesn't really need to read this. I basically said the same shit just shorter.

But for me it was just because people got kinda mean? What I mean is that over the past 4 years (probably accentuated by the pandemic), it felt less and less like a place where you could just talk to somebody. With every post I made, it felt like I was in a competition not just in terms of karma but in terms of making something that pleased as many people as possible. Every title needed to be perfect for the grammar people, every fact needed to be perfect for the fact people, everything needed to be as apolitical as possible.

And even with all of these unwritten rules, I came to realize that there really are just two types of posts or comments on reddit. There's jokes, and then there's debates. Jokes ended up being a little more lenient in terms of unwritten rules so I think that's why there's so fucking many of them on reddit and it's almost unavoidable to escape the pit of sarcasm in reddit comment sections. But with debates, it felt like with every comment I made, people came in expecting me to either agree with them or refute a point they made. And if I didn't make "a point," I wasn't contributing. I couldn't just go "Yeah I like Metal Gear Solid V, too," I had to go "Yeah I like Metal Gear Solid V, too, and the guy you're responding to is a fucking moron for not doing so," or "No, you're a dumbass, MGS4 is way better." I remember one time I joined into a conversation and somebody actually replied bullying me for not "contributing" and for posting useless comments, as if I were somehow wasting their time by not trying to argue with them.

And what's even worse is people just don't seem to know how to be nice about it? Obviously with the internet, people are going to bully you at some point but on reddit it was just all. the. time. Every post I made, every comment I made there was somebody who didn't like it and felt the need to tell me about it by insulting me or my family or my cat. Everyone was mean. It felt truly impossible to disagree with a person on reddit without insulting them, because that was the culture that was accepted there.

While I don't use TikTok, I ended up stumbling upon this series of them by way of YouTube Shorts called "Average Redditor..." by The Slappable Jerk and I really think they perfectly encapsulate what it's like to browse reddit, and I hate that it took me so long to realize that's what my experience was like. I kept watching them and going "Nah, nobody's like that," but then the more I used reddit the more I realized "Yeah, it's kind of everybody including myself." As you can see in the video I linked, the guy is either joking or debating and he's not nice about either one, and frankly that's kind of how every single one of my reddit experiences has been so far. I can't really remember the last time anybody has been nice to me on reddit. Maybe that's my fault and my brain is suppressing me from realizing it, but I do think it's a problem inherent in the system if I'm seeing other people doing it to each other also.

I got banned from reddit as a whole a week ago for reporting a guy for calling me a "spastic loser" after getting angry when another guy got angry for me not reading some deeper meanings in his 1 sentence post. I think that whole really weird run-on sentence should tell you all you need to know about my reddit experience these past few years. Funnily enough despite it breaking the subreddit's rules against insults, it was "report abuse."

I ended up hearing about Lemmy while browsing today and I deleted my account just now. I saw probably a couple dozen posts at most. It seems kinda slow here. But you know what I didn't see at all? People fighting. Calling each other names. Insulting each other. I saw debates and arguments but I straight up didn't see the same kind of debates and arguments that I saw on reddit. On Reddit I could probably go 3 or 4 posts without that happening, but even posts of 12 comments will always have rude jerks on them. Now I'm still new here, and I have heard that there are toxic and xenophobic instances of Lemmy that are on massive blocklists, but Beehaw so far has been nothing short of just plain joyful. It's so wonderful to see people online just. talking. to each other. And while I see people swearing (I did it myself in this post), it really just haven't seen it directed at other users on here. On reddit it seems like there's such a big culture of if you're gonna insult somebody you go for the deepest-cut insult possible. On here I just haven't seen that.

TL;DR: People on reddit are mean. Beehaw (and some other instances of Lemmy I signed up for) are far from that.

/rant

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[–] whinestone_cowboy 32 points 1 year ago (8 children)

There have been several times I’ve wanted to post on here and haven’t because I’m worried about how people are going to treat me for a single post. It’s hard to come out of that thinking on here and actually participate.

[–] sarsaparilyptus 16 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Well for what it's worth, you can't be downvoted on Beehaw. Plus there are way more people here who aren't dicks than there are on reddit, which helps too.

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[–] marin 8 points 1 year ago

I was also scared of doing the same thing but I just really had to rationalize that this platform isn't reddit and therefore it wouldn't be as hostile as reddit. I was scared to comment anything on the previous platform because of the same sentiments. This place is very chill tho

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[–] yote_zip@pawb.social 31 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I think the lack of global/account karma will help this in a way. Reddit was practically full of performers, doing tricks for treats. Jokes were easy tricks. There's no real value in posting garbage posts/comments when there's no long-term benefit for the user. I think we'll see a lot less cruft here, especially as people deprogram themselves from that habit.

I don't think people debated primarily for karma, but maybe with the rest of the performative aspects gone, people will stop feeling pressured to show off to others - publicly dunking on someone is another way to perform for an audience and receive validation points.

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[–] OrlandoDoom@feddit.uk 28 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You hate capitalism yet you exist in it

Yeah i hear that

[–] Kuma@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

It is comments like these that makes me miss reaction buttons! I want you to know I laughed out irl when I saw your comment! And I can't show that with out commenting. But writing only "hahaha" or 😂 feels a bit weird haha. But now you know 😂

[–] towerful 27 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I find myself less guarded on beehaw in some ways, and more guarded in others.

Firstly, I feel I can be more authentic. Discussions always seem to be in good faith, and I often come away learning something, reconsidering something, or just being more aware of other viewpoints. Whether I participate in the discussion or just read it.
It's just more enjoyable overall.

Which leads me onto how I am being more guarded. I am really trying to consider other viewpoints before even engaging with posts or discussions.
And I dislike that this is an effort for me.
But I like that I have realised it, and I now get to make an effort to be better.

[–] bermuda 11 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I think with the lower userbase, it's much less easier to say something others would find abhorrent or rude and then sulk away into the shadows of millions of other users. People can see you and go "that's that person who said some fucked shit." So for me at least I've found myself being a bit more guarded, but I think that's a good thing.

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[–] Plus_a_Grain_of_Salt 25 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I just wanted to bring up something I hated about reddit that no one mentioned, just to get it out of my system; ask a reasonable question? Prepare to be mass downvoted. Like why? Who is downvoting this? How did that offend you? I'd understand if they were framed weirdly or completely unrelated to the issue, but a reasonable on topic question shouldn't get that treatment.

[–] furrowsofar 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I love the tendency to get down voted for actually giving a correct answer. I sometimes replied to people who got down voted about this both sad and amusing situation. Especially if I liked their answer.

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[–] elonspez@lemmy.world 18 points 1 year ago (3 children)

If lemmy gets big enough, it will be just like that. Your problem is not a Reddit problem but an Internet forum with nested threads problem. It's much harder to hyperfocus on a comment in a flat comment structure.

[–] lwgrs 12 points 1 year ago (2 children)

An Internet ... problem

Yeah, that's 100% it. On the Internet in 2023, everyone needs to be right or win with their comment. It's off-putting when you've been on the Internet longer than Gen Z has been alive.

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[–] GhostMagician 6 points 1 year ago

Yep, there was a reason long time redditors used RES for the browser and third party apps to attempt to better curate content.

[–] guildz@lemmy.blahaj.zone 6 points 1 year ago

This is one of the reasons why mastodon doesnt have re-boosts, only boosts and replies.

[–] Synaptic_Jack@fedia.io 17 points 1 year ago

I agree with most everything you said. My personal take: all the Karma upvoting/downvoting stuff shaped community behavior to a sort of drastic degree - you either say something pleasing/sarcastic to the community and get upvoted or you got buried with downvotes for injecting an alternative viewpoint. After a while, I found myself going along with something just because a post had a massive number of upvotes… not realizing that the majority of readers very rarely go past the top 3-5 comments on a thread. So whatever was on top was usually the highest voted, and it was most often a sarcastic response to a legitimate question someone posted.

[–] Sinister_Crayon 16 points 1 year ago (3 children)

There is another aspect that you didn't get into; I am on a lot of subreddits where I attempt to help people with questions. r/zfs, r/ceph, r/homelab and r/datahoarder are ones I frequent among others where if people have questions I and others attempt to help them. This is neither a debate nor humour, and is one area where Lemmy still has a lot of catching up to do... not least of which because the specialized communities don't yet exist.

I haven't left Reddit yet... I'm still watching and waiting but it IS nice to have Lemmy and Tildes as alternatives (though I'm more digging Lemmy so far).

[–] overlordror 15 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I think those communities will eventually arrive on the fediverse. If anything, building the community yourself and gently guiding people to the alternative could help fence sitters who don't understand the full implications of reddit's new policies for the 1% of power users who actually create most of the content.

90% are lurkers, 9% will comment and upvote, while 1% of users generate content for the others.

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[–] Two9A@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago

...people came in expecting me to either agree with them or refute a point they made. And if I didn’t make “a point,” I wasn’t contributing.

Exactly this; towards the end, I was writing a comment every couple of weeks on Reddit, and most of the reason why is that I felt I didn't have "enough" of a contribution to make.

[–] furrowsofar 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I liked the “You hate capitalism yet you exist in it” ... BS. Whoever said capitalism should decide policy, run the government, or our lives is nuts. It is up to us to define the rules under which capitalism runs not the other way around. Besides when essentially there is only 1 Reddit... we are talking about a monopoly not a competitive business anyway and a century ago this was decided to be bad. You do not have a true competitive market unless you have say 7 or so mostly identical players anyway... but of course we let everyone consolidate down to 3.

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[–] LemmyAtem 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I've been commenting on here tons that I feel like reddit has morphed into every thread being an argument or a meme-off. I used to love just shooting the shit in the comments of a funny/cool post. It's been gone for years and so far it's what I like most about Lemmy. Way fewer comments sure, but like I'll go back and forth just talking with way more people.

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[–] 7749LlamaDrama 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This is not terribly different from my experience. I was getting pretty worn down by the hive mind effect that some subs developed and how badly you could get downvoted or yelled at if you went against the grain. I think Reddit had become perhaps TOO big. There was just so many people on it that it felt like competing mobs.

I think that sites like Lemmy will start to take off, we just have to give them time. And I will need to figure out mobile with this site, cuz I’m on my phone right now and I can’t read any comments under a post 😂 I’ll get therr

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[–] Silviecat44@vlemmy.net 11 points 1 year ago

I was constantly dragged into multi comment long debates on reddit where people would insult and attack me and my opinions. Like you said, Lemmy is much nicer.

[–] BlackCoffee@fedia.io 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I couldn't just go "Yeah I like Metal Gear Solid V, too,"

I would like to say to please DO post these kinds of things if you indeed like a product or service or whatever.

When I am deciding on a purchase I also liked to look at reddit threads at what the experiences are from the people who already purchased the service/product.

I would scan the threads and also look at how many people just agree with a point that is being made.

It is moronic that people see this as not "contributing", it actually also helps me as a consumer decide on the purchases I make and not all the comments have to be eloquent about it.

[–] nii236@lemmy.jtmn.dev 10 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Have you ever visited the comments section of Hacker News?

[–] bermuda 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

No, I'm not really a hacking person. You could call me more of a PC "hobbyist." Never got into the nitty gritty stuff like hacking or programming.

[–] nii236@lemmy.jtmn.dev 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The comment wars on those are absolutely insane! Reddit is pretty tame compared to those

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[–] thegiddystitcher 10 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I know it's not the point of your post (which I did read and also agree with) but just in case nobody else has mentioned it..

In your summary you said you'd signed up for "other instances of Lemmy" and I just want to make sure you know you don't need to do that to join communities in other places! :)

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[–] April@fedia.io 9 points 1 year ago

My experience on reddit is very similar to yours. The more niche subreddits you could get away from it a bit but.... yeah. the video you shared captures it perfectly.

As for beehaw, I'm not on there so idk. I joined kbin/fedia but my experience on the fediverse sounds similar to your own. Lots of people just chatting and talking about how it feels like "the old internet" and not really any of that reddit snark/heated debate.

[–] frogman 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)

i didn't notice the lack of swearing until you mentioned it, that's so bizarre lol. i didnt even think about it but it's pretty cool :p

[–] setsneedtofeed 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Constant swearing is like a replacement for cleverness. It wears thin very quickly.

When I see comments saturated with swears all I can think of are tweenagers who just realized they are out of earshot of their parents. I’m not offended by the swearing, just bored.

[–] BeMoreCareful@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago

Constant swearing is like a replacement for cleverness.

:( Me, who swears like a sailor.

I do like to think that is swear at things and not people.

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[–] loops 9 points 1 year ago

I fart in your general direction, your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries!


Really though, I was part of two private subs that were invite only. The smaller community and how users were "recruited" made a huge difference. I could post things there that I wouldn't on public forums, mostly because of the increased anonymity, but also because there wouldn't be any nastiness.

[–] hedge 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I fortunately did not have any really bad experiences on reddit, but the one thing that really annoyed me about it was all the e-bling that seemed to adorn every page. Coins! Karma! New shoes for your avatar! Like a casino. I tried to use ublock to eliminate some of the distractions, but then I found that blocking some annoyances also would block stuff I actually needed to click on, like from drop down menus. Libreddit was a godsend, at least for browsing and searching reddit, because it removed all the junk. I can also remember having trouble doing really simple things like cutting and pasting or rewriting sentences in something i'd posted. I don't know how many employees reddit has--probably more than all lemmy admins combined--and yet for all that they have a site that just doesn't work all that well, for me at least.

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[–] mrmanager@lemmy.today 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

I was also surprised by how rude and mean people can be on reddit. I guess it's mostly teenagers or people living in their moms basement.

I love Lemmy so much.

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[–] Rentlar 7 points 1 year ago

Been using Lemmy for a couple months total. So long as Lemmy continues to grow, these threads remain full of positivity as they mostly are, and as long as instance operators don't get tired of it, I say new users should keep posting about what they really like here kind of as an introduction.

[–] hedge 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Re: The Average Redditor on YouTube--Wow, it must take quite a bit of energy to be that sarcastic all the time. Think what wonderful things could be accomplished if all that energy was redirected towards gardening or nuclear disarmament. Makes me think of the Comic Book Guy on The Simpsons.

[–] GenericUsername@feddit.de 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

WoW iT mUsT tAkE QuiTe a BiT Of EneRGy To Be ThAT SaRcASTic AlL tHe tIme.

Pardon, couldn't resist the urge Ü

It actually does in my experience and you don't even have to actively be the one with that attitude.

I know (knew) someone like that and it honestly is exhausting. Even worse it also sucks the energy of anyone around and spreads like a dissease until either the whole community's sick or the host isolated.

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[–] frostycakes 7 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Another "I know this isn't the point of your post" comment, but that specific "Average Redditor" video rubbed me very much the wrong way.

I was partially raised by a physically and emotionally abusive grandmother, and that level of sarcasm the Redditor character shows is honestly far better than what that woman deserved. I hate how any backtalk to a grandparent is just framed as flagrant disrespect and ungratefulness, without any sort of contextualization. Calling Grandma a simple woman is fair play for Grandma calling you a worthless criminal waste of space, threatening you with knives, and breaking multiple kitchen utensils over your head at the age of six. Money can't buy off past abuse, and lord knows my grandma tried that shit too once I was too old for her to physically abuse.

Sure, Redditors are mean, but that example is extremely mean to survivors of familial abuse as well. The YT comments are even more of a triggering hellscape, it's sad because it's turned me off of checking out the rest of the series, which by raw description I probably would've enjoyed.

On a more topical note, I'm grateful for the welcoming nature of this community, and I'm hoping that keeps going as it keeps growing.

[–] Plus_a_Grain_of_Salt 8 points 1 year ago

Man, your comment almost made me cry at work. Thank you for sharing, I never realized the connection between toxic communities and verbal abuse. You've made me realize I've been letting my own bad history influence my perspective. I've been hard on myself for having the same feelings as Bermuda towards reddit. I couldn't tell if the community really is as bitter and short fused as it felt, or if I was being too sensitive. I thought feeling bad about what strangers said on the internet was weak of me. I realize now I'm probably just being hard on myself. People can be major assholes, and it doesn't make you weak to notice their bad behavior.

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[–] dreadpirateroberts@lemm.ee 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You wrote about this in your application? What application? Do some instances require an essay to join?

[–] bermuda 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Beehaw requires an application to join. No, it wasn't an essay in the sense that this post is kind of an essay. They just asked me three questions, and I wrote about a paragraph (5 sentences or so) for each question. This is basically what I wrote for the first two questions, just with a lot more words.

In the FAQ for beehaw they said if you don't write enough of a response then you won't be let in, but I was let in within about 10 minutes of making it, so I guess 5 sentences was what they were looking for.

[–] dreadpirateroberts@lemm.ee 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That’s really interesting and wasn’t my experience at all. I wonder what other requirements are out there for different instances?

[–] macarthur_park@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Lemmy.world just has a single question, asking why you wanted to join. I think the purpose is primarily to prevent automated account creation for bots. I gave a 3 sentence answer and was admitted within a few minutes.

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[–] nii236@lemmy.jtmn.dev 7 points 1 year ago (5 children)
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[–] pushka 6 points 1 year ago

Jokes and debates ey? Sounds like Facebook 😵😵

[–] kronicmage@lemmy.ca 6 points 1 year ago

I really love the smaller community vibes here. It feels much more real and genuine interact with people

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