this post was submitted on 24 May 2022
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[–] muad_dibber@lemmygrad.ml 25 points 2 years ago (3 children)

Adrian Zenz doesn't speak Chinese, has never been to Xinjiang, and is literally a US government employee.

[–] AgreeableLandscape@lemmy.ml 11 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

He's also himself a (Christian) religious extremist, and thinks that God himself needs China destroyed and that he's the vessel for doing that.

[–] GrainEater@lemmygrad.ml 6 points 2 years ago

"Worthy to Escape: Why All Believers Will Not Be Raptured Before the Tribulation", now available for $25

[–] OsrsNeedsF2P@lemmy.ml 8 points 2 years ago (3 children)

The files went in this trail:

Anon -> Dr. Adrian Zenz -> BBC

Are you suggesting the US government faked the documents, passed them to Adrian Zenz, and told him to pass it to the BBC?

[–] Catradora_Stalinism@lemmy.ml 18 points 2 years ago (1 children)

do you know what the cold war was?

[–] AgreeableLandscape@lemmy.ml 13 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Exactly. Fabricating intel on your enemies literally happened in the past, the US even unapologetically admitted as much.

Doesn't even need to go as far as the Cold War. The Iraq War was declared on false intel. Fabricated with the help of an ad company.

And let's not forget the CIA "I'm an escaped Uyghur, AMA" incident.

[–] GrainEater@lemmygrad.ml 7 points 2 years ago (1 children)

And let's not forget [...]

Which one was that? Rushan Abbas?

[–] AgreeableLandscape@lemmy.ml 9 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Yup, don't remember the name, but it was a CIA agent with ties to Guantanamo Bay pretending to be a Uyghur freshly escaped from a concentration camp. Redditors actually called her out on her bullshit, which is surprising given the state of Reddit today.

[–] GrainEater@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 2 years ago (2 children)
[–] Fissionami@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Probably. She got caught red handedly lmao 🤣

[–] GrainEater@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 2 years ago

You won't find those kinds of comments on R*ddit nowadays

[–] asdfghjkl@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 2 years ago

This would be funny if it wasn't sad...

[–] GrainEater@lemmygrad.ml 11 points 2 years ago

Would hardly be unusual considering what the CIA and its offshoots have been doing for a very long time

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[–] pingveno@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

He speaks Mandarin Chinese fluently.

[–] muad_dibber@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 2 years ago (1 children)
[–] pingveno@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago

That tweet is ambiguous. The characters in the picture and video are blurry, so it could well be that he's just having a hard time making out the characters.

[–] cypherpunks@lemmy.ml 22 points 2 years ago (1 children)
[–] Kulun@mander.xyz 13 points 2 years ago (2 children)

If the documents are authentic, it doesn't matter who delivered them

[–] GrainEater@lemmygrad.ml 23 points 2 years ago (1 children)

If they're authentic and correctly translated, yes. Doesn't mean the source is irrelevant. Considering the BBC's track record and the fact that this man is employed by the US government, I would recommend being extremely skeptical.

[–] Kulun@mander.xyz 6 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

The Xinjiang Police Files were evaluated and checked for authenticity by a team of more than 30 journalists from 13 media outlets around the world – including the British BBC, »El País« in Spain, »Der Spiegel« in Germany and »Le Monde« in France

[–] GrainEater@lemmygrad.ml 15 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I don't know what qualifications these journalists have w.r.t. verifying the authenticity of the documents, but let's assume that they're genuine. Do they contain some actual evidence to support the allegation that China is committing genocide, using slave labour, or something similar? (These are extremely serious allegations to make, so they ought to be very confident about their conclusions.)

[–] Kulun@mander.xyz 4 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Do they contain some actual evidence

Did you even read the linked article, or some other sources?!

[–] GrainEater@lemmygrad.ml 15 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

I've read plenty of it. I've also seen plenty of counter-evidence, so you'll have to forgive me for not reading through all claims made by highly disreputable sources -- it's far easier to make an outrageous accusation than to disprove it. I'm sure you've read the article you posted, so feel free to point out which parts you find convincing.

EDIT: I have now read the article. It certainly does make some allegations (although even if it is completely accurate, the Chinese government's treatment of the potential religious extremists detained there is far more humane than what the US does on a regular basis).

An interesting thing to note is that one of the articles linked at the bottom is an excellent example of the lies outlets like the BBC frequently spread about the official enemies of the imperial core -- this article repeats the extreme claims made by Tursunay Ziyawudun, who is known to have changed her story multiple times (1, 2 (same article as above), summary (from a pro-China source), another summary in a Twitter thread).

[–] Kulun@mander.xyz 4 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

~~Why would you want to discuss an article you haven't even read?~~ [due to graineters edit]

I’m sure you’ve read the article you posted, so feel free to point out which parts you find convincing.

The authenticity of the sources seems plausible.
It's not about me or what I find convincing, and it 's not my intention to convince anyone, so pls don't judge others by yourself

[–] GrainEater@lemmygrad.ml 15 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Finished my edit a second after you posted this.

I would argue that a story "seeming plausible" isn't a particularly good reason for these extreme accusations, but you do you.

[–] Kulun@mander.xyz 3 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Don't try to twist the words in my mouth. I never said the story is plausible, but the authenticity of the sources
can you tell the difference?

[–] GrainEater@lemmygrad.ml 14 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

What? No, I can't particularly see how you could consider the story implausible while the sources are authentic. (EDIT: Unless you believe that the BBC is deliberately drawing faulty conclusions.)

[–] Kulun@mander.xyz 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I respect that you can't see it, so have a nice day anyway.

[–] GrainEater@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 2 years ago

You have a nice day, too.

[–] AgreeableLandscape@lemmy.ml 12 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Yes.

Even assuming the documents are true, they don't lead people to infer that the people being dealt with are innocent and "was captured for being the wrong race." If they're prisoners who have actually committed serious crimes, which the Chinese government has always outright stated they have reeducation programs for (and every country has a penal system, surprise surprise), I don't see how the treatment of them are anything scandalous. The US often treats inmates worse than is alleged in these leaks, as do many other Western countries.

Let's go through all of the claims with the context that it's likely actually a prison or reeducation camp, for actual criminals/extremists, shall we?

The police are instructed to kill escapees if they confront them with a warning shot and they keep trying to escape? Not unreasonable and seen all the time in Western high security (and even low security) prisons. Hell, with all the unjust police killings reported in the West, a Western even petty criminal is lucky if they even see the walls of a prison. Wait, I thought those evil commies killed prisoners on the regular just for fun, and here they are firing warning shots when someone is trying to escape?

Prisoners are blindfolded and shackled when transporting them? Seen all the time in Western high security prisons. It's to prevent them from knowing where they are and planning an escape accordjngly, and you know, fighting the officers and escaping outright, respectively.

Prisoners in need of medical care are restrained and escorted by police? Funny story, I went to a hospital here in Canada, and I actually saw an inmate in the same ward being attended by a police officer. Inmate was in prison jumpsuit, and officer's uniform literally said he works at a prison and is escorting an inmate. Wait, I thought the evil Chinese commies denied all medical care and even basic living nessities to their prisoners. Hmm...

Also, interesting that the police in the leaked medical procedure picture is carrying a stick, not even a proper police knight stick, it's looks like a broom handle lol. You'd think they'd go for something more substantial if they're committing genocide.

All in all, if this is true, it seems like fairly standard prison security procedures to me. Certainly nothing that would be out of place in a Western prison.

The article authors also don't actually call out that this institution these files are alleged to be from are actually one which the CPC has claimed to be a school for "willing students". You'd think in a "China is the devil" article, if the CPC ever publicly referenced this specific facility as such, they'd definitely call that out and go "see? They lied!" Because you can have both proper prisons/compulsory reeducational facilities and facilities for willing participants. Western courts also order prisoners to undergo reeducation mind you, though that's a dictatorship word so they don't call it that.

[–] AgreeableLandscape@lemmy.ml 14 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Notice a pattern with the publications jumping on this?

Also, how do you even validate something like this beyond a reasonable doubt? I saw no actual proof of the verifications of their documents, and it was basically "these are real and I checked. Trust me, I'm the BBC." Was it accidentally sent to the BBC by a gov.cn email or something? If someone just showed up with these documents (which they did, twice removed mind you) how do you know they didn't just create them? Because they're extremely easy to fabricate, just open up Microsoft Word, and someone with even moderate computer forensics knowledge can pretty easily forge all kinds of metadata and other tidbits that makes a fake document seem authentic, even under close scrutiny, because you're ultimately trusting what the file self reports itself to be from. And obviously a piece of paper is even easier in this regard.

So, what? They have a few out of context images of Chinese police, testimonials (which are unnamed and highly aggregated, literally no more than "there are people who confirmed these mugshots are of their missing relatives", the definition of hearsay) saying the mug shots are real, and some censored phone and ID numbers of police (so YOU can't verify it) that if real, probably weren't classified to begin with (why would you classify who's a police officer and who isn't?) And it's not like people, including the police, don't get their phone numbers leaked to the public all the time.

This is a huge issue with leaked documents in general, and there have been plenty of very convincing leaks that ended up being fake. And it's also why in court trials, where authenticity is absolutely imperative, written documents or computer files that weren't obtained by a court discovery order or subpoena is extremely hard to actually get entered into evidence, even if you claim that you took it right out of the murderer's hands. There are chain of custody problems because the history of the document is hard to verify, and it's almost always inadmissible as hearsay (Legal Eagle on YouTube has some good explanations of this).

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[–] Catradora_Stalinism@lemmy.ml 20 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Commenting for algorithm so lemmygrad sees it

:D

[–] Fissionami@lemmygrad.ml 8 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Consider my comment as well lemmygrad!

[–] GrainEater@lemmygrad.ml 8 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

and... my... my axe...? right? fellow younglings?

[–] Fissionami@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 2 years ago (1 children)
[–] GrainEater@lemmygrad.ml 7 points 2 years ago

come on, don't make crass jokes like that, you're better than this

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 15 points 2 years ago

LMAO Zenz moment.

[–] Catradora_Stalinism@lemmy.ml 15 points 2 years ago (1 children)

All the west can do is lie

[–] Fissionami@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 2 years ago

It isn't called "Empire of Lies" without any reason

[–] Catradora_Stalinism@lemmy.ml 14 points 2 years ago

lmao better than my school

[–] AgreeableLandscape@lemmy.ml 14 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

BBC BS/propaganda aside (and yes I too think that's the case), the page design itself is HORRIBLE. I don't want your stupid progressive web app animations, just give me a normal looking article FFS.

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