this post was submitted on 27 Dec 2024
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Neopronouns are not trolling (lemmy.blahaj.zone)
submitted 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) by ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone to c/main@lemmy.blahaj.zone
 

I've been waiting until after Christmas day to make this post, but some of our communities recently have had a lot of noise and upset over someone that uses neopronouns that most people are unfamiliar with.

So I want to make this clear. A persons pronouns are to be respected. This is true when the user is using neopronouns that you're unfamiliar with. It's true even if you think someone is trolling. Pronouns are not rewards for good behaviour. They aren't only to be respected when you like the person you're interacting with, or if their pronouns "make sense" to you. Trolls, spammers, twitter users, it doesn't matter who they are, your options are to respect their pronouns, or to not engage with them.

I really want to re-iterate the importance of this. Gender diverse folk are undermined, invalidated and questioned at every step of our lives. As a community, we need to be working to undo that, not creating more of it, and that means there is no space for treating pronouns (including neopronouns) as a reward for good behaviour.

This isn't a free reign for trolls and spammers. The rules still apply. Trolling, spamming, etc will continue to be dealt with, but it's not an excuse to act as if respecting someones pronouns is optional.

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[–] erotador@lemmy.blahaj.zone 108 points 3 weeks ago (3 children)

I love how this gets posted for community members, in a meta community, talking about how to engage with our space to not get banned, and then every loser from all comes in here like "umm actually you can't police my speech and umm pronoun bad" and promptly gets banned for being transphobic and breaking the rules that this post said will be enforced.

the mods and admins are doing a good job here, thanks for all your hard work you put in to make one of my favorite spaces on the internet as wonderful as it is.

[–] Rozauhtuno@lemmy.blahaj.zone 62 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Won't somebody think of the transphobic cishet men?

They're the real oppressed! """", blahaj

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[–] TheAlbatross@lemmy.blahaj.zone 28 points 3 weeks ago

Ada is legit one of the best moderators I've seen in my 25 years on the internet.

[–] Catpurple@lemmy.blahaj.zone 17 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Like moths to a light bulb, it would be funny if the banned folks' behavior wasn't steeped in hatred

[–] Nikki@lemmy.blahaj.zone 44 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

i don't get why its so hard for people to use the block function and move on, i was sick of hearing about dragonfucker the second i saw dragonfucker crying victim in every thread on my feed. other comments have outlined my feelings on neopronouns so i wont get knto that

it felt trolly and disingenuous the way that dragonfucker was going about it, so i used the block function because it was exhausting to look at. shouldn't be more complicated than that

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[–] Coskii@lemmy.blahaj.zone 44 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (5 children)

Coskiis' stance on pronouns is very simple. Coskii will respect anyones pronouns up until those pronouns are more complicated than a beings name. At which point Coskii uses the beings name instead of any pronouns. Pronouns are meant to be a conversational shortcut. If a shortcut is not being made, Coskii does not feel the need to use pronouns.

Neopronouns are (generally) not more complicated than a beings name. Exceptions do exist.

Writing a message without using pronouns for explicit understanding of how and why pronouns exist in English in the first place, including personal pronouns, is certainly a mood. The flow of sentences is somewhere between legal and caveman. Not using pronouns leaves no wiggle room for any interpretation on the subject being discussed, however the lack of personal pronouns means Coskii must always refer to Coskii as Coskii. Thank goodness Coskii is not a terribly long name.

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[–] pixeltree@lemmy.blahaj.zone 40 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I don't care for neopronouns, but it also doesn't matter what I think. If it's REALLY a problem for me, like that person who's gender identity is divinity and the pronouns that person uses are capitalized, I just won't refer to that person. (Seriously, that does bother me, not that person's gender in general but referring to anyone, fictional or not, Like This.)

[–] spacelogic@lemmy.blahaj.zone 18 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I see that case as an anomalous one because the tension I personally have there is: a person may be a god, but that doesn't make that person my god, and I shouldn't be required to behave worshipfully towards a god I don't follow. I may choose to follow other religions' conventions around how they refer to their gods and/or prophets in some contexts, but the idea of not having a choice in matters of religion makes me deeply uncomfortable. Respect between equals, which is what using a person's pronouns generally is, should be automatic, but deference to authority should be earned in my book.

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[–] Sasha@lemmy.blahaj.zone 36 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Neopronouns are valid as hell and all these people who refuse to acknowledge that fact are by definition transphobic.

You cannot claim to support trans people while declaring a subgroup to be invalid because you think they're not doing it the right way. You are not an ally unless you support all trans people, people who use neopronouns are not the problem, you are.

Policing trans people makes you a transphobe.

[–] prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone 31 points 3 weeks ago (3 children)

My only concern is that people (or one person in particular) aren't genuine, but are doing to to discredit trans people, and the concept of gender fluidity in general. Kind of an extension of the "one joke" conservatives have ("hurr durr, I identify as an attack helicopter").

Obviously I can't say for sure that's what is happening, but I've read some of their comments that set off some red flags for me that maybe this person isn't being genuine.

I personally err on the side of caution, so I'd never purposely insult this person by calling them "him" or "her," but they'll remain a "they" to me, as that is still gender-agnostic not offensive to someone with "neopronouns" (as far as I understand it).

[–] Strawberry@lemmy.blahaj.zone 25 points 3 weeks ago

I know a few neopronoun users and some are fine with they/them, some are just worn down into accepting they/them, and some really do not like they/them

[–] Sasha@lemmy.blahaj.zone 22 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

It doesn't really matter what you think about the person, the point is to take their word for it. If making people accept neopronouns is trolling then it's not a bad thing and I am personally not upset by it. If that did somehow "discredit" me I would argue that it only reflects badly on those who think my acceptance of it is bad, they are using it as a weak excuse to attack me.

Using they may be considered misgendering if you know that that person doesn't also go by they, neo-pronouns or otherwise.

[–] prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone 25 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (2 children)

It makes a mockery of real gender issues. I fully support anyone who wants to be anywhere on the spectrum of existing genders. What I'm not sure I support is indulging people's possible mental illness by pretending it's ok that they believe they're a fictional creature that only exists in fantasy.

I'm really not trying to sound callous or offend anyone, but that's just not the same thing and I don't believe it should be treated with the same level of seriousness as actual gender fluidity.

We know that it is possible for people to be assigned one sex at birth, but then fit anywhere in the spectrum. We also know that it is not possible for someone's gender to be "unicorn." Because unicorns aren't real, and even if they were, they are not on the human gender spectrum.

I'm sure everyone will tell me how I'm wrong but whatever. This has nothing to do with transphobia. The opposite, in fact.

When people on the left legitimize these people's obviously absurd claims, it is used as a cudgel to harm the trans community. It legitimizes all of those stupid, "litter boxes in schools" things in many people's minds. It does more harm than good.

[–] dragonfucker@lemmy.nz 10 points 3 weeks ago

Men are as made up as unicorns, but we all respect men's gender identities, and we should.

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[–] koper@feddit.nl 16 points 3 weeks ago

The reason people say these one or two users are trolling is not because of their pronouns. It's because they demand accommodations that go well beyond pronouns and most of their posts are playing the victim.

[–] ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone 21 points 3 weeks ago

My only concern is that people (or one person in particular) aren't genuine, but are doing to to discredit trans people

Ok, lets say that this happens.

That doesn't mean that the correct response is to invalidate neopronouns. If that's literally the goal of a troll, then saying "You're a troll, I'm not going to use your pronouns" is literally what they want.

But I will also suggest you read up on Isabel Fall, to see why even the attack helicopter pronoun meme isn't always a troll, and how the community itself can become harmful to its own members when it turns on them

[–] yuri@pawb.social 28 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (8 children)

i bite my thumb at anyone who complains about drag. the most drag has ever done is correct people and VERY OCCASIONALLY call out when someone is actively belligerent about it.

reckon how folks treat our dearest dragonfucker is pretty good insight into how they’d react to myriad other similar social situations. this heavily contributes to why i have very little patience for folks “just asking (bad faith) questions” about it.

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[–] apotheotic 26 points 3 weeks ago

Love this, Ada. So nice to see another instance run by caring, respectful folk. Love from beehaw!

Before I curse my worst enemy I will ask their pronouns. Their right to identity is not based on my respect for them.

For everyone confused about neopronouns I would like you to consider what we could and could not do about them.

We could:

  1. Not respect them and let people bully neopronoun users
  2. Respect them and not let people bully neopronoun users

Doesn't really matter if you want to use the pronouns or not, clearly respecting neopronouns is the only good way to deal with the situation unless you want to give people free reign to just talk down to, misgender, and harass a group of users.

[–] lolola@lemmy.blahaj.zone 22 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

I've spent what feels like half an hour scrolling through comment threads to figure out what the hell happened to lead to this. Is there some kind of explainer somewhere? Is there a key thread that I missed somehow? Should I even be asking?

[–] klemptor@startrek.website 37 points 3 weeks ago (12 children)

There's a user called dragonfucker whose gender is apparently "dragonfucker", who insists on the neopronoun "drag", and who eagerly takes offense whenever misgendered, whether the misgendering was intentional or not. Some people understandably believe this user is a troll.

[–] dragonfucker@lemmy.nz 18 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

Dragon Rider, actually, not dragonfucker. And drag isn't mad that you misremembered.

[–] sukhmel@programming.dev 10 points 3 weeks ago

Some Lemmy clients show handle instead of username, that's why some users may never have seen 'Drag Rider (drag)' at all

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[–] Coskii@lemmy.blahaj.zone 15 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

This is more of a public service announcement style of post than a deeply intentioned 'after incident response' post.

While I'm sure there have been plenty of incidents based on some of the other comments, there hasn't been some singular massive event to cause this to happen. If anything it's more of a reminder that one purpose of blahaj.zone is for inclusivity and acceptance. Excluding people because of some indirect words is not the goal.

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[–] Katzastrophe@feddit.org 20 points 3 weeks ago (8 children)

Lots of people in here who don't get pronouns or trans people, for those I recommend this article:

https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/so-you-found-out-youre-agender-because-you-don-t-understand-trans-people-886fdee6f178

There's a very real chance you guys might be agender cis, which is super fascinating because it's barely looked into, due to how agender cis people usually don't even know that their experience isn't universal.

[–] koper@feddit.nl 13 points 3 weeks ago (3 children)

I was interested until I saw the author and it clicked. Must be a broken clock situation.

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[–] dragonfucker@lemmy.nz 19 points 3 weeks ago
[–] Sasha@lemmy.blahaj.zone 19 points 3 weeks ago

Holy shit this thread has become a prime example of why we love you so much Ada, I've literally never seen a safer place on the internet before and I'm including my own community I run outside of lemmy.

Endlessly defending trans people and banning all those who refuse to accept basic rules, it's incredible although disturbing seeing how many transphobes have come out of the woodwork.

[–] Cassa@lemmy.blahaj.zone 18 points 3 weeks ago

As always Ada, eloquently put ♥️♥️ thank you!

[–] yuri@pawb.social 18 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

yo only vaguely related, but pugjesus is REALLY being an asshole about drag. i figured this is a safe place to vent lmao

that powertrippinbastards community gets worse every time i dip my head in, i swear

[–] ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone 16 points 3 weeks ago (17 children)

Lemmy seems to be getting worse unfortunately :\

[–] yuri@pawb.social 18 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

thanks for being around, ada. the work you do is greatly appreciated, even if it’s not readily apparent all the time.

imo @MossyFeathers said it best in an edit they made to this comment, quoted for visibility:

the fucking entitlement of cis people telling trans people how to run their spaces is sickening. I thought Lemmy was supposed to be fairly progressive, yet once again I’m being shown that cis people believe they deserve a voice in something that has nothing to do with them. You don’t get to call yourself an ally when you question someone’s validity.

You disgust me.

[–] MossyFeathers@pawb.social 11 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

Damn, it's really weird to see myself getting quoted in a completely different thread, lol. Tbh, I'm not sure I handled myself all that well; however, in my defense, I was really pissed off because it's no where near the first time I've seen people claim an identity was false, nor was it the first time I've seen someone treat pronouns like a reward for good behavior. I don't agree that using "gender" in the way drag was using it is the correct way of using it, it seems like using a hammer on a screw; however, that's not really for me to decide.

Drama subs are kind of a guilty pleasure for me, which was why I was there in the first place (also I browse all). At this point though, I've blocked pugjesus and I hope to never see their ass again. Probably gonna go back and block a bunch of the transphobes effectively saying that having your identity/pronouns respected are a privilege and not a right as well. What a bunch of gross, toxic individuals. It also makes me sad and disappointed. Lemmy used to be fun. It's not really fun anymore.

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[–] SoleInvictus@lemmy.blahaj.zone 15 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

To be fair, pugjesus is an asshole about a lot of things, not just drag.

/s

I took a look and this is their normal behavior: just the topic du jour that they can use to whip up drama.

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[–] DingDongDitch@lemmy.blahaj.zone 16 points 3 weeks ago

Without ever making a post on the Lemmy, I have donated to this instance every month for well over a year, amounting to hundreds. Your principled moderation is why I am here. I will forever be grateful for the space you've given us

[–] spujb@lemmy.cafe 12 points 3 weeks ago

Thank you, Ada. I truly wish it had not come to this, but making this post is one of a very few good choices you could make in such an awfully difficult situation. I respect your vision and commitment for the space you want to create here and I hope it works out for the best.

[–] koper@feddit.nl 12 points 3 weeks ago (3 children)

Very true. I do hope that the one or two trolls who instigated this post stop getting free rein to start drama. Pronouns should be respected, narcissism should not.

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