chirasul posted:
my only advice is to BE CAREFUL posting about holiday traditions around europeans. you'll post something casual like "anyone else watch the old Grinch movie every year? what a classic" and a european will appear as if summoned and say some shit like "funny how USAmericans always CONVENIENTLY forget that Not Everyone On Earth is from The USA…….. no of COURSE we dont watch 'the grunch' or whatever the fuck that is…. our tradition is to attend a community showing of Glummdorf the Racial Stereotype"

themainspoon replies with screenshots of several tumblr tags and comments:

riseupriseupandcomealong:
my mom’s (american) class tried doing a language exchange thing w a sister school in spain and they decided to send each other boxes of gifts for christmas. the spanish class made remarks about oh christmas in the usa is so commercialized we have ~real traditions~ here and then my mom opened a box full of blackface dolls and blackface doll ornaments and blackface clothespins in front of her students

raygender:
Did once have a Dutch woman vehemently defend the Festive Christmas Blackface by repeating "it's different in Europe” with increasing desperation until she was crying. Literally all anybody else present did was just like, calmly say they were uncomfortable with the practice and not change her mind when she wailed about it.

monkey-mulch:
you bring up rudolph the red nosed reindeer and they bring out Skimbo the filthy redskin and im barely even joking about that they actually had this thing called indian plays in both soviet countries and germany

themainspoon:
European children waiting patiently on Hatemas Eve for Racism Claus to slur down the chimney and segregate all of their presents by colour.

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[–] manicdave@feddit.uk 36 points 4 weeks ago (5 children)

Which European country was it that added a loophole to their constitution to allow slavery as punishment then manipulated their legal system to lock a third of black men up again? I forget.

[–] nicknonya@lemmy.blahaj.zone 12 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

"my culture can't have racist elements because your culture is racister!"

truly a smackdown, i am humbled.

[–] Honytawk@lemmy.zip 8 points 4 weeks ago

Well, you didn't come with actual arguments, so I guess you are humbled.

[–] megopie@lemmy.blahaj.zone 11 points 4 weeks ago

France.

[–] Letstakealook@lemm.ee 9 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

Imagine being from the UK and thinking it is some superior country. You're literally a top contender for the worst group of human beings to have ever existed.

[–] DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 5 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

I personally don't think the sins of the father pass to the son, because that's what stupid assholes who haven't developed second order thought think, so maybe consider refering to the nation as a concept instead of every living or dead Brit.

[–] Letstakealook@lemm.ee 3 points 4 weeks ago

So...exactly what the person I was responding to did...interesting.

[–] araneae 7 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (1 children)

I'm really glad we're doing all that and this is your takeaway because that gives Europeans like yourself every excuse to do nothing. It's okay for me to trip on this rake because somewhere an American is tripping on their rake harder.

[–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 12 points 4 weeks ago (2 children)

You're on a thread that's effectively saying America doesn't have racist traditions like Europe does. The comment above just calmly points out that we do, and some of it is part of our existing legal system. You don't get to insult Europeans (in a way that seems to at least in part be made up) and then get angry when someone points out very legitimate real racism that actually effects a large number of people's lives.

[–] nicknonya@lemmy.blahaj.zone 5 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

You're on a thread that's effectively saying America doesn't have racist traditions like Europe does.

[citation needed]

this post is about holiday traditions specifically, like that'd the first sentence.
at no point did anyone say america isn't racist.

believe it or not, every western culture is racist in some way to some group.

[–] Tenniswaffles@lemmy.blahaj.zone 7 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

Every culture, not just the western ones.

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[–] araneae 3 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago)

I paired down a much cruder response initially to just what you read because I thought about it and realized this was the case. I still find it disgusting to use whataboutism to ignore Europe's racism. If your answer to is to shrug off your own country's white supremacism because America is worse that's bullshit. It isn't as enlightened as you think it is.

[–] drbluefall@toast.ooo 6 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

Ah, Europeans always love to hoist racism over Americans.

Forget stones, y'all have whole-ass machine guns in those glass houses.

[–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 14 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

I'm an American.

What the fuck is this thread? Americans can insult European racism, but a European can't point out American racism?

[–] Tenniswaffles@lemmy.blahaj.zone 8 points 4 weeks ago

I think the issue on this instance is that the original is bringing up America's racism as a way to dismiss their own.

[–] rumschlumpel@feddit.org 28 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago)

you bring up rudolph the red nosed reindeer and they bring out Skimbo the filthy redskin and im barely even joking about that they actually had this thing called indian plays in both soviet countries and germany

IDK about the soviet union, but "indian plays" are not a (common) christmas tradition in Germany. I've never even heard of those.

@OP thanks for adding the transcription.

[–] antonim@lemmy.dbzer0.com 23 points 4 weeks ago

they actually had this thing called indian plays in both soviet countries and germany

Americans are so racist they have to fabricate nonexistent racist stuff elsewhere to feel better about their own racism. Impressive.

[–] bjoern_tantau@swg-empire.de 23 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

nervously puts his Lumumba away

[–] odium@programming.dev 15 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

for those who don't know: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumumba_(drink)

[–] Don_alForno@feddit.org 5 points 4 weeks ago

I'm totally calling it "tote Tante" from now on.

[–] ShinkanTrain@lemmy.ml 21 points 4 weeks ago (3 children)

The war on Christmas isn't real but I wish it was

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[–] HawlSera@lemm.ee 19 points 4 weeks ago (4 children)

Germany literally has a children's game called "Who's Afraid of the Black Man"

I don't wanna hear about Racism being a "uniquely American problem"

Cause it very clearly is not.

School shootings and medical debt however ARE "uniquely American problems"

[–] Duke_Nukem_1990@feddit.org 36 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (1 children)

That's based on the black death, aka. the plague, hence the rules of the game.

We have enough rascist shit in our culture but this one isn't :)

[–] cows_are_underrated@feddit.org 11 points 4 weeks ago

I actually didnt knew that.Thanks. :)

[–] Don_alForno@feddit.org 13 points 4 weeks ago

Looking back as an adult the origin is clearly racist. But since I sung that in kindergarden myself: We didn't associate "black man" with a person of colour. When I was 4, I was imagining some creep in a black trenchcoat.

[–] djsoren19@yiffit.net 9 points 4 weeks ago

It's seen as an American problem because America is one of the most multicultural countries in the world. It's not surprising you don't hear about racism much in countries with 80%+ white populations

[–] hungryphrog@lemmy.blahaj.zone 5 points 3 weeks ago

I learned pretty recently that the "black man" is actually supposed to either be the plague/death or some kind of boogeyman.

Here in Finland, it used to be "kuka pelkää mustaa miestä" which means the same thing, but was later switched to "kuka pelkää mustekalaa" (mustekala=octopus/squid) because, well, that name didn't work too well when kids started to actually see black men.

That being said, racism seems to be one of the most popular pastimes in Europe.

[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 18 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

My Christmas tradition has the Krampus. He's both not racist and a terrifying monster. I'd call that a holiday tradition jackpot.

[–] rumschlumpel@feddit.org 3 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (1 children)

Krampus does have an unfortunate history of people beating each other up, though. And by "history" I mean "In many places it was the norm until a few years ago, and lots of people didn't get the memo yet and assault people who wear Krampus suits during parades etc.".

[–] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 3 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

In my hometown, we never had Krampus parades and it was more like children and Krampus pranking each other.

[–] rumschlumpel@feddit.org 2 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago)

The parades are already the relatively modern, watered-down/'family-friendly' version of the old tradition.

The thing about pranks is that people don't tend to agree on what is okay for a prank. One person's funny prank might be another person's violent assault, same with how the Krampus is allowed to 'retaliate'.

[–] teije9@lemmy.blahaj.zone 17 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

in the Netherlands we have a guy named Saint Nicholas that gave money to prostitudes and other poor people to save them, who then decided to join him. The best translation for their names i have is 'squires' but not really. Because they go down our chimneys to deliver gifts it's tradition for them to have ash on their face, which some are calling blackface.

[–] lime@feddit.nu 17 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

Roetveegpiet seems to only have come about because of the blackface issue with Zvarte Piet, which was originally portrayed as a moor said to be a literal slave to Sinterklaas. Sooty Piet only got more popular than Black Piet in 2021., going from polls.

[–] teije9@lemmy.blahaj.zone 6 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

I've always heard that they were black because of the ashes. and, the original original Sinterklaas rescued prostitudes

[–] lime@feddit.nu 7 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

every source on the internet will tell you that the soot thing is from like the 90s at the earliest.

[–] ChairmanMeow@programming.dev 12 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

Dutch Wikipedia has the first references to blackness from soot pinned to an image from the 1870s:

"Zwarte Piet had in deze tijd nog niet zijn huidige naam; zo is hij op een centsprent uit 1870 afgebeeld als een schoorsteenveger met de naam Zwartjan." https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet#:~:text=Zwarte%20Piet%20had%20in%20deze%20tijd%20nog%20niet%20zijn%20huidige%20naam%3B%20zo%20is%20hij%20op%20een%20centsprent%20uit%201870%20afgebeeld%20als%20een%20schoorsteenveger%20met%20de%20naam%20Zwartjan.

Translates to: "Black Pete did not have his current name yet, he was depicted on an image from the 1870s as a chimney sweeper named "Black Jan" (Jan is a stereotypically Dutch name, one of the most common Dutch first names. Pete, or Piet in Dutch, is also a very common Dutch name).

[–] lime@feddit.nu 6 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

i should have switched languages, there is of course more nuance in the original article. i'm reading a translated version so i may be missing something but "black jan" seems to be a reference to Jan Schenkman, the author. and although it is indeed stated that he had no intention of it being a depiction of a black person, the zeitgeist seems to have willed it into that shape anyway. after that section, the next reference to soot is in the early 1900s (not the 1990s as i read from the english page though). it does look like the soot explanation was the less popular one until fairly recently though.

[–] ChairmanMeow@programming.dev 5 points 4 weeks ago

The name is a reference to Schenkman, but it did refer to the same character.

Piet's origins are all over the place, and form a perfect cocktail of "it looks bad, but the explanation is fairly innocent". There's elements from chimney sweepers, traditional Venetian Moorish outfits, German Krampus, the practical element of having black makeup making a close relative hard to recognize for children, etc... that all combined without much of a clear decision-making process. It all happened very gradually and naturally within Dutch society.

Hopefully we'll have this changed everywhere soon enough, though there are still some conservative areas that resist the change.

[–] Samsy@lemmy.ml 11 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

In some parts of Germany, the gifts are coming from the "Christ's child" which is an angel, a child, Jesus as a kid, all of them? I am from Germany, and I still don't know.

[–] Don_alForno@feddit.org 6 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (1 children)

It's obviously child Jesus. It's not "Christ's child", it's "Christ (the) child".

[–] Samsy@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 weeks ago

Sure, better use child-jesus, the adult one would make everyone sad, especially because he loses the gifts through the holes in his hand. /s

[–] Letstakealook@lemm.ee 10 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

You literally can't talk about anything related to the US without Europeans whining. It really is hilarious and quite stupid in general.

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[–] Gork@lemm.ee 10 points 4 weeks ago

When do I arm my strategic bomber for the War on Christmas? 🛫💣🎄🎇

[–] Mr_Blott@feddit.uk 8 points 4 weeks ago

Sorry but the comment about the films is horseshit

2024 will mark about two decades of sitting through Home Alone and Die Hard, and before that it was two decades of Shitty Shitty Bang Bang (thanks autocorrect 😂) and The Wizard of Oz

Quite looking forward to the new Wallace and Gromit though!

[–] ICastFist@programming.dev 5 points 3 weeks ago

Meanwhile, Brazil just embraced the capitalism hell-mas. We do like making nativity scenes (presépio)

[–] Davel23@fedia.io 4 points 4 weeks ago

The Jim Jefferies Show had a good bit on this: https://youtu.be/piGzE2cMVqA?si=ekVJu9FI7fmKJiA6

[–] Cassa@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

This was apparently my reminder that the nordic christmas is not european ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

never seen a blackface, is pretty commercialized and all - but not seen any hateful stuff that I recognize.

[–] Swedneck@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 3 weeks ago

it's commercialized but like, softly so, like the nordics in general.

[–] fushuan@lemm.ee 2 points 3 weeks ago

My Christmas tradition is some fat drunk Sheppard that comes down the mountain with presents and coal to announce that Christ has been born.

Y'all are weird.

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