This is the real Kamala Harris – a friend to Israel, war mongers and big business, an enemy to working class people. We need a new system! #VoteSocialistArtCall : usa

[–] suburban_hillbilly@lemmy.ml 14 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

"Hey you know how there is an unbelievably close race between a centrist who wants to maintain the status quo but may occssionally bend to public pressure and an outright madman who want burn democracy to the ground while lining his own pockets and rolling back social progress to the 1850s? You should totally protest vote for a party that doesn't have its shit together enough to even get on the ballot everywhere and has no chance at all of winning. That will show them how you really feel!"

I cannot imagine why main stream American politics doesn't take leftists seriously.

Grow up.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 12 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

See, Leftists don't believe Harris is a "centrist" but a genocidal Imperialist, similar to Trump. Harris hasn't yet bent to public pressure either.

[–] suburban_hillbilly@lemmy.ml 3 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

Hate to break it to you, but nearly twice as many Americans think we are providing the right amount of assistance, or should be providing more to Israel, than think we should be providing less in regards to their war. That is the direction of public pressure.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

The primary mover isn't public pressure, but the US Empire's economic interests. Support for Israel is both lucrative for the Military Industrial Complex, and helps the US exert power in the region, securing the Petro-Dollar. This is how the US maintains financial supremacy, and hyper-exploits the Global South through brutal Imperialist IMF loans that it can write in its favor.

[–] suburban_hillbilly@lemmy.ml 4 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

And you think the average American doesn't enjoy being a beneficiary of that system?

[–] Sauerkraut@discuss.tchncs.de 7 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

Are we really a beneficiary? All the economic gains seem to only be realized at the top because the owner class has perfected the art of paying us the absolute minimum we need to survive.

[–] suburban_hillbilly@lemmy.ml 3 points 3 weeks ago

An excellent question, one of the few in this thread. Not really. But as long as our gas is percieved to be less expensive than most of the rest of the world, and the well paying jobs it creates to build bombs and planes and such continue to exist, it will continue be viewed as beneficial.

[–] sunzu2@thebrainbin.org 2 points 3 weeks ago

You are hurting the owner class. Stop!

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 3 weeks ago

That's a more complicated question, but it's besides the point: the mechanisms the parties move by are the mechanisms that keep themselves in power, and that's appealing to their donors.

[–] TheOubliette@lemmy.ml 7 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

You should be against genocide and not vote for any genocide candidate.

We can all see that in your condescending and largely unrealistic boilerplate lesser evil lecture, you conveniently ignored the elephant in the room.

Now, we could talk about how your electoralism logic is flawed, but as you all claim morality, I don't think I should need to. You should be against genocide and act accordingly.

[–] suburban_hillbilly@lemmy.ml 8 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

If you think voting in a way that helps Trump win is a vote against genocide, I have some bad news for you.

[–] TheOubliette@lemmy.ml 6 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

If you vote for a genocider, you vote for genocide. You shouldn't do that. It's wrong to support and normalize genocide.

[–] suburban_hillbilly@lemmy.ml 4 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

I would love to vote for no genocide, but once again, even more genocide is not only on the ballot, but has taken the lead in the last few days. Meanwhile the no genocide candidate on offer here couldn't manage to get on the ballot in enough places to to win and couldn't be arsed to follow the rules in the places they did bother. So forgive me if I choose to live in reality and do the only thing I can that might actually stop the even more genocide guy.

[–] TheOubliette@lemmy.ml 5 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I would love to vote for no genocide

Then don't vote for a genocide candidate. Easy. Done.

[–] suburban_hillbilly@lemmy.ml 3 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Lots of things are easy when you refuse to acknowledge the consequences of your actions. Enjoy the sand in your ears.

[–] TheOubliette@lemmy.ml 5 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

You said you'd love to do something as if it's difficult when it is actually trivially easy.

You should be against genocide and not vote for genocide candidates. You seem to disagree. So, tell me. Tell me, "I will vote for a genocide candidate and normalize genocide". Acknowledge your compliciy before making your excuses.

[–] Sauerkraut@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

We want to vote for zero genocide, but our broken two party system has become a horrific trolley problem where the only choices given to us are full genocide and half genocide. So I will vote for half genocide because the trolley will default to full genocide if we don't.

Seriously, this is a trolley problem. You have the entire Palestinian population on the track (Trump), but you can pull a switch to move the trolley to only kill half as many (Harris). It sucks and I will never forgive our broken system for forcing me to make such a choice, but until we replace our corrupt system with something better we have to minimize harm in every way we can.

[–] TheOubliette@lemmy.ml 6 points 3 weeks ago

We want to vote for zero genocide

What I said was that you should not vote for or normalize genocide. You and others apparently disagree.

So tell me that you think you should support genocide or vote for genocide candidates.

This dithering is just lying to yourselves and others. In support of genocide.

[–] Sauerkraut@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

You're not wrong, but people who are voting against fascism are also not wrong. There are pros and cons to each.

[–] TheOubliette@lemmy.ml 5 points 3 weeks ago

If you support genocide there is little meaningful difference between you and any modern fascist.

[–] basmati@lemmus.org 1 points 3 weeks ago

If you believe genocide is the way to stop fascism, you're a fascist.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 11 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Liberals love Leftists until Leftists extend their criticism to Liberals.

[–] TheOubliette@lemmy.ml 9 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Liberals become reactionary monsters when someone has consistent left politics and doesn't do whatever daddy genocide tells them.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 3 weeks ago

Yep. Liberals use Leftists as a messaging aesthetic to toss aside when it comes time to get their hands dirty.

[–] darth_tiktaalik@lemmy.ml 5 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

See, this is the kind of thing you bring up during primaries not when the field has narrowed down such that the only other viable contender is worse.

[–] basmati@lemmus.org 2 points 3 weeks ago

The dnc made sure there weren't primaries.

[–] oxjox@lemmy.ml 1 points 3 weeks ago

This is what the people who forgot about Donald Trump say. Trump's presidency was far more rewarding for Israel than either Russia or North Korea; arguably, even more rewarding than the US. This conflict wouldn't have existed without Trump's aid in the first place. If you think Biden or Harris are friends with Netanyahu, you are sorely mistaken.

I'm voting for the person I trust to make a half a promising decision for calmness in the Middle East rather than the one who's guaranteed to gladly trade the lives of Palestinians and Americans in exchange for authoritarianism. And if the person I choose to vote for (wins and) doesn't live up to my expectations, if this person does not aid in Middle East tensions, I'll still sleep well at night knowing how much more traumatic it would have been with the alternative.

I give a shit about this world. I will not be part of the downfall of democracy and the promise of more lives lost and freedoms around this world revoked for the sake of someone's ego and business dealings. I will not throw out my vote.

I'm voting for Harris because I support a free Palestine. Because under Trump, Palestine is guaranteed to disappear.

United States | News &amp; Politics

United States | News & Politics