this post was submitted on 17 Oct 2024
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United States | News & Politics

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[–] nick@midwest.social 17 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Yes, she sucks in her own ways. But she’s not a fascist.

[–] TheOubliette@lemmy.ml 13 points 1 month ago

A nationalist "tough on crime" anti-socialist with a deep appreciation for cops-for-capitalism pining for a return to "glory days" for a subset of residents while scapegoating others via racist and xenophobic policies? While pushing a genocide? Whose supporters can't even name the parts of her platform that appeal to them, instead trying to build a cult of personality and identify through who they reject?

To the extent anyone is fascist any longer she's right up there. But she uses rhetoric that is normalized for liberals and flies under the radar because the oppression she supports is sanitized and "politely" obfuscated.

[–] SinAdjetivos 14 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

LMAO at the amount of "her entire career has been about building and filling internment camps, but at least she doesn't have the popular support for a coup!" in this thread.

[–] Mambert 7 points 1 month ago (2 children)

A federal prosecutor has always dedicated her career to building "internment camps" but a literal coup that led to several deaths was "soft"?

[–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I can't tell which you're trying to do, apologize for maga chuds or kamala's abuse of black people and immigrants.

[–] Mambert 2 points 1 month ago

That's right where I want to be. So on the fence you frustratingly want me to just pick any side.

But for your own sanity sake, I prefer to side with society freedoms. I'm too young and broke to care about tax brackets or inflation rate.

[–] SinAdjetivos 6 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Several deaths:

six people died: one was shot by Capitol Police, another died of a drug overdose, three died of natural causes, and a police officer died after being assaulted by rioters.

I'll admit it may technically be a mischaracterization, but I don't think you understand the level of violence that is typical of "hard" coups.

[–] Mambert 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I just disagree with softening the word by adding "soft" at the beginning. A soft coup is a coup. Date rape is still rape, candy-corn-murder is still murder. No need to add prefixes to try and categorize them, and artificially make some sort of hierarchy.

By naming it any less than a coup, and holding all coups to the same standard, it's an attempt to soften it, and I am against that.

[–] SinAdjetivos 4 points 1 month ago (1 children)

It's not a hierarchy per se so much as different categories/distinctions which I do think is useful. A serial killer is different than a hitman which is different than a soldier. I agree they are all functionally the same but they serve different purposes and have different characteristics which are important to keep in mind when talking about them.

That being said you've changed my mind on calling it a "soft" coup as it doesn't really accurately describe the differences I was trying to convey. "Incompetent, halfhearted, and poorly planned autocoup" would be more accurate but it's a mouthful and I don't know if that's the most useful distinction either.

Either case thanks for the pushback!

[–] Mambert 2 points 1 month ago

I definitely agree we have different names for different scenarios!

When a rich person is murdered, they're assassinated

When a religious figure does a magic trick, it's a miracle etc

[–] Mambert 13 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I don't see "attempted a coup when she lost an election and still denies losing to this day" so my mind is still set.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 12 points 1 month ago (1 children)

The least you can do is join the Party for Socialism and Liberation (PSL) or Freedom Road Socialist Organization (FRSO). Only through organization outside the electoral system does the Proletariat have any hope of steering the ship and seizing the reigns.

[–] nick@midwest.social 14 points 1 month ago (4 children)

No. The stakes are too high for this bullshit. Better Kamala than an actual literal fascist.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 month ago (2 children)

The stakes are too high to not organize, voting for the Dems doesn't stop fascism, or even delay it.

MAGA is popular for the same reason other nationalist, fascist movements have risen over the course of modern history: as a response to Capitalist decay. MAGA isn't popular for genetic reasons, intellectual inferiority, or other reasons like that, but as a common class interest. All of the descriptors in the OP are consequences of the driving factor of class interests, not the drivers themselves.

Fascism is most often represented as an alliance between the Petite Bourgeoisie and Bourgeoisie proper, driven by the Petite Bourgeoisie, as monopolization of Capital results in competition becoming more and more difficult, and the Petite Bourgeoisie faces Proletarianization. To prevent the Petite Bourgeoisie from joining the Proletariat in solidarity, the Bourgeoisie proper turns their hatred against the Proletariat and Lumpenproletariat.

What does this all mean, in practical, American terms? Small business owners, landlords, ie the "middle class," is shrinking in power, so the Small Business Owners are aligning with billionaires like Musk and Bezos against immigrants, workers, unhoused peopled, gender/sexual minorities, women, ethnic minorities, and more.

How do we fix this? Grow the Petite Bourgeoisie and restore their position? Absolutely not! That's when fascism is established. Trying to "turn the clock back to the good old days" results in dramatic reductions in worker rights and a solidification of power.

What we need to do is establish Socialism. A victory of the Proletariat, a folding of the large monopolist syndicates into the public sector so they can be centrally planned for the public good, rather than privately planned for profit, is the way forward. This is the way to escape fascism's rise. This is the way to defeat MAGA.

I recommend reading the book Blackshirts and Reds, fascism's irrationality has rational, material origins, that can be understood and defeated, and it isn't in the "marketplace of ideas."

[–] nick@midwest.social 10 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Yeah that’s never happening dude, sorry; this shit’s way too entrenched. Until we start killing lobbyists and billionaires off, ain’t shit changing. Might as well be pushing Jill stein.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 month ago (1 children)

The answer is organizing. Join the Party for Socialism and Liberation (PSL) or Freedom Road Socialist Organization (FRSO). Only through organization outside the electoral system does the Proletariat have any hope of steering the ship and seizing the reigns.

If you do not organize, then you are fine with fascism.

[–] Mambert 4 points 1 month ago (1 children)

You haven't even demonstrated that there is a ship to steer. I'm very against fascism, which is why I'm voting for Kamala.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 month ago (1 children)

What do you mean, I haven't "demonstrated that there is a ship to steer?"

[–] Mambert 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Organizing has never led to someone getting into office. Voting has led to people getting into office.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 month ago (1 children)
[–] Mambert 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Kinda an exception, don't you think?

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

The opposite, I'm arguing for revolution.

[–] Mambert 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I can't vote for the non-fascist and also organize for revolution?

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Fascism isn't an idea, it's a defense mechanism. Voting isn't going to matter, vote for whoever you like, I don't care. You can vote for Harris if you join an org, how about that?

[–] Mambert 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 month ago

Then make good on it. Voting is less than the bare minimum.

[–] wildncrazyguy138@fedia.io 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

How's that radical rise of the proletariat going for those in Venezuela? How did it go for the Soviets after Lenin? How'd that whole great leap forward go for the farmers in Maoist China?

Or perhaps you are of the "These are not true Marxist regimes. There's never been a true Marixst state" camp. Gee, I wonder fucking why? Perhaps because it doesn't work. Marxism is unsustainable at scale.

You want a commune, go for it. A town of co-op of farms, by all means. Perhaps even a small city state, just beware, if you introduce a power vacuum, some smooth talking snake oil salesman is going to try to fill it.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 month ago (3 children)

How's that radical rise of the proletariat going for those in Venezuela? How did it go for the Soviets after Lenin? How'd that whole great leap forward go for the farmers in Maoist China?

Venezuela is doing alright, not great but it isn't really a Socialist state. The USSR had great success in many areas, like a doubling in life expectancy, free healthcare, free education, huge increases in home ownership, and more. The PRC struggled during the Great Leap Forward, Mao was only about 70% good, Deng course-corrected back to Marxism-Leninism.

Or perhaps you are of the "These are not true Marxist regimes. There's never been a true Marixst state" camp. Gee, I wonder fucking why? Perhaps because it doesn't work. Marxism is unsustainable at scale.

No, AES states exist and Marxism works. Cuba, the PRC, Vietnam, Laos, DPRK, etc. are all guided by Marxism-Leninism. Socialism guides the largest economy on the planet, if it couldn't scale then it wouldn't have.

You want a commune, go for it. A town of co-op of farms, by all means. Perhaps even a small city state, just beware, if you introduce a power vacuum, some smooth talking snake oil salesman is going to try to fill it.

I am not advocating for Communes, I don't know where you got the idea that I was.

[–] ma343 4 points 1 month ago (1 children)

This is my problem with the PSL, you can't call yourself a party for liberation and then support the DPRK regime, an absolute hereditary dictatorship. It's great to point out the flaws in the US ruling parties, but campism is just ignoring the very real flaws of anyone who happens to oppose the US internationally because they're on your "team". In reality, there's no team except the working class, and these supposedly leftist governments are usually not treating the working class well either.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 month ago

The DPRK isn't a hereditary dictatorship, that's not accurate. No, it isn't a utopian paradise either, it's somewhere in the middle of those two extremes.

but campism is just ignoring the very real flaws of anyone who happens to oppose the US internationally because they're on your "team".

Have you read Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism before? Are you familiar with the term "critical support?"

[–] wildncrazyguy138@fedia.io 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I think you are conflating most of your examples with Dictatorships and Capitalist-Socialist hybrid regimes.

I would also hardly consider Cuba or Laos as frontiers of innovation. Just curious, do you feel that innovation is an important aspect of civilization? If so, do you think socialism and innovation can thrive without the sacrifice of one to the other?

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Can you explain?

Edit for your edit:

I would also hardly consider Cuba or Laos as frontiers of innovation. Just curious, do you feel that innovation is an important aspect of civilization? If so, do you think socialism and innovation can thrive without the sacrifice of one to the other?

Cuba and Laos are doing well, Cuba especially is great in the healthcare sector for innovation. Yes, Socialism and innovation thrive together. Markets are good at preparing the ground for public ownership and planning through the formation of monopolist syndicates, but that's really yhe biggest aspect, innovation is often held back by the profit motive.

[–] wildncrazyguy138@fedia.io 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Most of the people in these countries have reduced civil rights and do not get have much say in who rules them. Perhaps that is design intent, but I much prefer a system where people are free to make most of their own life decisions free of retribution and oppression.

Of all of your examples, I think Vietnam demonstrates the advantages of a planned economy, however, Vietnam is also a socialist-capitalist hybrid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist-oriented_market_economy and their people are also significantly less free than Democratic-Socialist countries such as Sweden and Finland: https://freedomhouse.org/country/sweden/freedom-world/2021

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 month ago

The DPRK was bombed into oblivion and is one of the most sanctioned countries on the planet. Despite this, it isn't nearly as bad as you believe. Heck, why not watch 2 aussies get a haircut there?

Yes, liberal, non-Marxists believe the PRC to not be Socialist, go figure. The PRC is a Socialist Market Economy. The model is described as a birdcage, the CPC allows markets to naturally develop but only along their guidelines, and increases ownership as competition creates these new monopolist syndicates. Socialism Developed China, Not Capitalism is a good article going over China’s economic model. The CPC has the power it has as a Dictatorship of the Proletariat, it needs that power to maintain supremacy over their bourgeoisie. Communism is achieved by degree, not decree.

Can you not cite constant far-right Imperialist Think Tanks?

Of all of your examples, I think Vietnam demonstrates the advantages of a planned economy, however, Vietnam is also a socialist-capitalist hybrid

Socialist Market Economies are Socialist, not "Socialist-Capitalist hybrids."

and their people are also significantly less free than Democratic-Socialist countries such as Sweden and Finland: https://freedomhouse.org/country/sweden/freedom-world/2021

Ah yes, the far-right Think Tank evaluated some of the most Imperialist countries on the planet and said it was good. Those are Imperialist Social Democracies.

[–] rothaine 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

The USSR had great success in many areas

The PRC struggled during the Great Leap Forward

You seem to be papering over the part where a shit ton of their own people died, so I don't think this really works as a pitch. You'd need to find a way to ensure that mass death wouldn't happen again, and then succinctly express it.

Mao was only about 70% good

Anyone who does mass executions is a fucking monster. Probably better to leave this out of the pitch.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 month ago

I can discuss in-depth with you if you'd like, but Blackshirts and Reds is the perfect book for you. AES is by no means a fantasy wonderland, but it is a dramatic improvement on existing conditions. The Kuomintang and the Tsars were more brutal than the Communists, and that brutality lasted for centuries.

[–] TheOubliette@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 month ago

You should organize against genocide, not support its perpetrators.

[–] SoJB@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 month ago
[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 month ago

Fascism is caused by systemic political and economic factors- basically when capitalist psuedo democracy runs out of runway and the capitalists choose to preserve capitalism over the concessions of bourgeois democracy.

If you care about democracy you have to join a socialist org and fight for socialism.

[–] Fidel_Cashflow@lemmy.ml 13 points 1 month ago

excellent post 🫡