the initial argument only applies to Utopian Socialism anyway – fighting for your personal interest is exactly the point of communism, destroying all the enemies of the working class
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Depends on the definition. Kropotkin, who self identified as anarcho communist, wrote a scientific book literally called Mutual Aid
That's my point. It's all about doing self-interested things like mutual aid. Mutual defense is in my self-interest. A dairy co-operative is in the farmers' interest. Zebras move in herds because it is in their mutual self-interest.
The initial comment is saying communism is about self-sacrifice, against human nature. Kropotkin (I've read the book three times btw) convincing makes the case that it's the opposite of self-sacrifice: about pursuing our natural mutual interest according to our evolutionary imperatives. Kropotkin would say that ruthless competition is against our evolutionary nature and imperatives because it disadvantages survival.
You're misinterpreting Scientific vs Utopian Socialism. Kropotkin was a Utopian, not a Marxist. Marxists use Scientific Socialism to refer to the creation of Socialist Society as an evolution upon Capitalist society, whereas Utopianism refers to people "spontaneously" adopting a system after being convinced of it, ie waiting on someone to magically think of a perfect society and directly building it, instead of looking at Socialism as another stage in human development.
I suggest reading Socialism: Utopian and Scientific.
Am I? I never called him a Marxist because he clearly wasn't. He was an anarcho communist (before bolsheviks burned the term communism).
Still he didn't claim that it will happen spontaneously. Your dichotomy is wrong. He may not have been a Scientific Socialist in the Marxist Tradition, still his theory was scientific and revolutionary. Historical Materialism isn't the only path to think scientifically about history and socialism. It's actually pretty unscientific to think so.
Am I? I never called him a Marxist because he clearly wasn't. He was an anarcho communist (before bolsheviks burned the term communism).
Yes, you are. The above commenter explicitly mentioned Utopianism vs Scientific Socialism, indicating the intent on following Marxist analysis. Secondly, I don't know what you mean by the bolsheviks "burning Communism" when they established the first Socialist State.
Still he didn't claim that it will happen spontaneously. Your dichotomy is wrong. He may not have been a Scientific Socialist in the Marxist Tradition, still his theory was scientific and revolutionary. Historical Materialism isn't the only path to think scientifically about history and socialism. It's actually pretty unscientific to think so.
Again, you're using "Scientific" to refer to literal science, not the term as it relates to Socialism. His theory was Utopian, rejecting history as it develops and instead embracing the concept of there being some perfect society that can be adopted directly. This is Utopianism.
I don't know what you mean by the bolsheviks "burning Communism"
I said "burning the term communism" as in you can't use it anymore without thinking of bolshevism. The meme and the comment above mine said communism, not Marxism.
Otherwise you have proven my point that you have no understanding what so ever in his theory. He writes expansively about history and about the revolution and transition. Just because he doesn't belong to your tradition, you lump him together with people he had little in common with.
Again, you're using "Scientific" to refer to literal science, not the term as it relates to Socialism.
I never said I wasn't. I even elaborated on that I reject Marxist Historical Materialism. What even is your point here?
His theory was Utopian, rejecting history as it develops and instead embracing the concept of there being some perfect society that can be adopted directly. This is Utopianism.
Well, did he? He didn't write about history in Mutual Aid? And Conquest of Bread is not about a literal conquest but about adopting it directly? Do you even think before you write?
I said "burning the term communism" as in you can't use it anymore without thinking of bolshevism. The meme and the comment above mine said communism, not Marxism.
Generally, "Communism" is attached to Communists, the vast majority of whom have been Marxists of various stripes, the most relevent among them being Marxist-Leninists. Communism wasn't stolen from the Anarchists, Communism was attached firmly to the groups with major historical relevance.
Additionally, "burning" implies betrayal and scorn.
Finally, OP is a Marxist, not an Anarchist, and the comment you replied to specifically mentioned critique of Utopianism, indicating Marxist analysis and critique.
Otherwise you have proven my point that you have no understanding what so ever in his theory. He writes expansively about history and about the revolution and transition. Just because he doesn't belong to your tradition, you lump him together with people he had little in common with.
That's all well and good. Writing about transition, revolution, and history is nice. However, ultimately, he was an Anarchist. He rejects the Marxist theory of Socialism as it emerges from Capitalism throughout historical development, and took the idea that Communism can be established outright. This is a rejection of Scientific Socialism, and an embracement of Utopian Socialism, I remind you as this meme and the original commenter both were speaking along Marxist lines.
I never said I wasn't. I even elaborated on that I reject Marxist Historical Materialism. What even is your point here?
My point is that you inserted your rejection when it wasn't relevant as though it was.
Well, did he? He didn't write about history in Mutual Aid? And Conquest of Bread is not about a literal conquest but about adopting it directly? Do you even think before you write?
He of course wrote about history, and the necessity of Revolution, but rejected Historical Materialism and Scientific Socialism, instead taking a Utopian view. He believed you could jump straight to Communism through a brief transitional period.
You're being needlessly antagonistic and rude, by the way.
I love how the commenter above me already agreed with me but you still feel the need to defend them for no reason.
They used the term Utopian Socialism, not implying that they were Marxist. There are more than two ways. Kropotkin for example was neither. All you're saying is "he wasn't Marxist so he was Utopian" which is wrong as I and the commenter above me already agreed on.
You can even be Marxist and still reject Historical Materialism as John the Duncan does even tho he sadly never dedicated a video on that, just hints it here and there.
Utopianism isn't really a movement, though there are of course movements that are Utopian. Utopian is a specialized definition. Conquest of Bread is the most classic kind of Utopian literature, trying to puzzle out a way of building society from the ground up to not have the social ills and poverty Kropotkin saw in his time. Not all anarchists are Utopians (not all of them concern themselves specifically with the positive machinations of the proposed final circumstances), but Kropotkin definitely was.
They used the term Utopian Socialism, not implying that they were Marxist. There are more than two ways. Kropotkin for example was neither.
Kropotkin absolutely was Utopian.
All you're saying is "he wasn't Marxist so he was Utopian" which is wrong as I and the commenter above me already agreed on.
Not at all what I said.
You can even be Marxist and still reject Historical Materialism
You cannot reject Historical Materialism and remain a Marxist, that's a firm rejection of the core of Marxism.
It's not "destroying all the enemies of the working class" but "destroying classes so we end up being working class". The idea (as I understand it) is that working class is the one that creates things while bourgeois class is only a parasite. So everyone should be creating something and not sucking the blood of others.
Close. Neither case is fully correct
Communisn is the doctrine of the conditions of the abolition of the Proletariat
-Engels, The Principles of Communism
The bourgeoisie doesn't create value, the proletariat does, correct, but dogmatic class warfare is anti-Marxist. Class warfare must service the overthrow of the Bourgeoisie via smashing the Bourgeois state, and replacing it with a Proletarian state that withers away as it untangles class contradictions. You cannot create Communism by killing all of the bourgeoisie, but by wresting their power as Socialism emerges from Capitalism.
Maybe I didn't explain myself correctly. For the bourgeoisie class to disappear it's not needed to kill anyone. Only take off the power they have and make them work as proletarians.
People are neither inherently selfish or inherently generous. People are survivors regardless of what is necessary to do so. A human will give the shirt off his back to his neighbor but will spite a customer service worker because they're in a bad mood or feel slighted. Your tribe is your most important social aspect
I know I would be attacked by entire fediverse, but I want to say that charity also has egoism as backing cause. People help other people because it makes them feel good. And people expect themselves to be noticed or praised or rewarded, even if they tell themselves and everyone else that they don't.
Also don't presume that I am a capitalist, before you decide to attack me.
Donating to charities often gives tax benefits.
Kind of. I agree partly. My mother used to knit winter clothes, for free, for some institutions and she wasn't the one delivering them. They never knew who she was, and she didn't bother.
The very existence of society and the fact that we aren't blindly killing eachother for resources proves that civilization is not based on humanities animalistic instincts. Therefore the claim that humans cannot overcome their own base instincts (as claimed by many Liberals) would imply that we are no morally or intellectually superior to animals.
Even animals are not based on such "animalistic instinct", most of animals cooperate on some level.
Indeed, all intelligent creatures are capable of acting beyond what is strictly needed for survival.
Cooperation is needed for survival in many cases, or at least improve the odds.
Exactly lol, look at ants their society is thousands times more organized than our and they don't even have brains. To be fair they only focus on basic needs like food and reproduction we do a lot more things
My take on this is that the greatness in humanity comes from being a bunch of egoistic assholes capable of doing the right thing and help each other.
A selfless person doing something selfless is normal. A egoist doing something egoistic is normal. An egoist doing something altruistic is what raises us from pure instinct to humanity.
Considering Ayn Rand's novels as literature was a mistake.
"One of the USSRs biggest mistakes was giving Ayn Rand an education"
"And when all those self made champions went away and created a new society, free of the old one, one of them asked 'does anyone of us know how to cook?'. And then they screamed in fear".
It's either this fairy tale, or its flip side, the myth that 'private vices' somehow add up to 'public virtues'.
"The good of the people" is a noble enough goal. Unfortunately, the people in charge of these movements are people who deliberately seek power, and for the most part, those people are vain greedy, brutal, a-holes.
For the most part? That's an empirical claim. Any evidence? My gut disagrees with you, but my gut also has no evidence.
It's not an empirical claim if you have literal examples of how badly "communism" (self-serving oligarchy) has failed.
I'll start with the collapse of the Soviet Union in the 1990s. And I hope I don't even need to point out what Mao did to China.
Can you make any analysis? Vaguely gesturing doesn't mean anything.
Stop simping for billionaires. It's embarrassing to watch.
I'm a Communist, of course I don't simp for billionaires.
You shouldn't even attempt to figure out their logic. People will say and do anything for power. They don't believe what they say. It's just an excuse to do what they want to you and your people.
They will find a way to make their twisted dreams your reality, even if they have to manufacture it.
You do understand we can make loads of those about communism as well?
Capitalism has caused untold horrors.
Have you seen what horrors communism has caused, though? Ever tried looking at history? Maybe read up on the great Chinese famine? Maybe read up on how communism started in Russia? You know, maybe watch the movie "the Chekist", great movie for those under the illusion that communism is a great thing. If your stomach can survive that movie, then yeah, you're a diehard who is perfect for the next regime
Maybe read up on the genocide of the native Americans
Maybe read up on American chattel slavery
Maybe read up on the Ludlow Massacre
Maybe read up on the Tulsa Race Massacre
Notice how all yours are perpetuated by differing countries. All mine are from America. Capitalism is poison, and you are its catalyst.
Authoritarianism != Communism
Communism is about the power of the working class, seizing the means of production, and self governance. No government has effectively put into practice communist practices because the concept of government itself is contrary to communism.
There's been a decades long movement in the US to demonise communism (and socialism) in favour of capitalism. There used to be overtly communist political groups in America.
Anyway, it's an interesting read. I highly recommend you read up about communism and what it stands for. Also capitalism because we're all more or less living in a crony capitalist world.
Communism is about the power of the working class, seizing the means of production, and self governance. No government has effectively put into practice communist practices because the concept of government itself is contrary to communism.
This is incorrect, and I encourage you to read more, specifically Socialism: Utopian and Scientific as well as The State and Revolution. Communism is not about "self governance" or being anti-government, that's Anarchism, and thus the source of a large schism between Anarchists and Communists. The concept of government is not anti-Communist, and AES states were true representations of Communist ideology guiding the state.
Principly, when Communists say Communism will abolish the state, they say it will wither away, and change from a tool one class uses to oppress others into an "administration of things," ie elections, government, and so forth are retained, perhaps minimized over a long period of time.
There's been a decades long movement in the US to demonise communism (and socialism) in favour of capitalism. There used to be overtly communist political groups in America.
For what it's worth, there still are, like PSL (running for President) and FRSO. The old CPUSA still exists as well, though it is Reformist to the core and thus is revisionist.
Every time Im making an epub, I keep coming across comments where I want to throw it at someone, but I can't since it isn't finished yet.
Oh yea, you asked me to do Elementary Principles of Philosophy, so of course I'm making Soviet Democracy.
Oh, hell yea! I'd love an easy link to EPoP or SD to throw at people. Great work!
It crossed my mind earlier today that we live in a world that is optimized for the happiness of the rich. Everything else on the planet has been twisted towards that goal.
Ok but socdem. And before you try to make a counter argument with [insert nordic country that is actually capitalist] just think about how they always call the ussr and china communist while they arent.
Ok but socdem. And before you try to make a counter argument with [insert nordic country that is actually capitalist] just think about how they always call the ussr and china communist while they arent.
What are you trying to say?
Does it really matter what scheme the elites use to wring out all surplus value out of the population to repurpose for their own ends ?
Ok but socdem. And before you try to make a counter argument with [insert nordic country that is actually capitalist]
??? That is a novel take "let us split power with our oppressors, but Nordic countries don't do that"
they always call the ussr and china communist while they arent.
Yeah the USSR was and China is a transitionary socialist state lead by a communist party.
Get it together people.
Ok but socdem
Lol. Lmao, even.
And before you try to make a counter argument with [insert nordic country that is actually capitalist] just think about how they always call the ussr and china communist while they arent.
China is Socialist with Chinese Characteristics, and the USSR was Socialist. Both are/were Communist in ideology.
Our (American) system of capitalism rewards selfish sociopaths.