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What do you think of the term "short king" as a term that's supposed to champion body positivity for men? (lemm.ee)
submitted 8 months ago by BmeBenji@lemm.ee to c/asklemmy@lemmy.ml
48 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 

Body positivity is such a strange concept to me. There's efforts to reclaim words while simultaneously calling them bad if used as an insult. Ideally, people wouldn't be offended by someone describing their body with common descriptors, but socially there is so much value attributed to certain body types that it's almost impossible to avoid having an emotional response of some kind to various descriptors.

For example, It's not bad to be fat, but calling someone "fat" is almost universally considered a bad thing. The same definitely seems to go for the idea of being "short."

I'm asking this question because I can't put my finger on why but something seems to be different about the use of the term "short" from the use of the term "fat." I think that part of it is how, to me at least, the term "fat" is so generic and hard to nail down to a discrete definition, implying that the word really doesn't have a clear connection to reality. On the other hand, height is a single-dimensional number. You either are above a certain threshold, or you aren't.

I recently learned that May 6th to May 10th is "short king week" because it's 5'6" to 5'10" which then prompted me to search for the origins of "short king" and apparently the person most-credited with popularizing the term is Jaboukie Young-White who claims the term was meant to include all men under 6 feet tall. The average adult male height is 5'9" leaving men considered roughly average to be called "short" which is still considered an insult by many.

I dunno. As a term that was intended to champion body positivity compared with how the term is actually used, what do you think of "short king?"

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[–] oxjox@lemmy.ml 37 points 8 months ago (3 children)

I'm 5'6" and find the term childish and insulting. It's not the short part, it's the king part. I am not a king, I'm a regular guy working a regular job.

"Body positivity" is garbage. People should be honest and support healthy lifestyles. Twisting reality to make someone comfortable is detrimental to their physical and mental health.

I don't understand the reasoning but, across the board, it seems today's culture is very quick to accept literal delusions in place of reality for the sake of feelings and "mental well being".

[–] DrJenkem@lemmy.blugatch.tube 15 points 8 months ago (1 children)

I agree that we should strive for people to be healthy. But there's a lot of evidence to suggest that shame not only is ineffective but can actually have the opposite effect.

Besides, I think you're being pretty reductive. Health includes both physical and mental, we should take steps to improve both of these. And I get the sense that you specifically take issue with body positivity specifically around fat people, as I assume you don't think being short or tall is unhealthy. In which case, you're ignoring the economics of it (at least in America, there are a ton of government subsidies for corn, incentivizing businesses to load up our food with corn syrup).

The issue is complex and so would any solutions. At least in America, we need to deincentivize the production of unhealthy food, better access to healthcare, and cultural shifts as well. And I'm sure there's a whole lot I'm missing.

[–] oxjox@lemmy.ml 3 points 8 months ago (2 children)

If you’re ashamed for being overweight, that’s something that should motivate you to lose the weight. Embracing being fat and blaming others is not healthy, it’s delusional.

There’s also a ton of government subsidizes for other fruits and vegetables. Don’t blame the government for your poor eating habits. Learn to prepare real food. It’s healthier, cheaper, and more abundant. You don’t need to deincentivize producing unhealthy food, you just need to choose not to eat it.

This culture of supporting people who are overweight is making us all lose sight of what a healthy lifestyle looks like. As generations spend less time working physically and more time sitting, our diets should be moving towards far less calories. Instead, we’re being made into nothing more than consumers who click a button to have bad food delivered to us while we sit on the couch.

The only complex issue is how we got here. It’s not complex to make healthier choices. I’d argue it’s easier than what we’re doing now. To quote Michael Pollan, “eat food, not too much, mostly plants”.

[–] DrJenkem@lemmy.blugatch.tube 16 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

If you’re ashamed for being overweight, that’s something that should motivate you to lose the weight.

You would think so, but you'd be wrong. As I said before, shaming not only doesn't work but has the opposite effect.

As James Corden said:

If making fun of fat people made them lose weight, there'd be no fat kids in schools.

If you're sincere in your desire to make people healthier, then shame is not the way.

If you're only interested in a feeling of superiority, then carry on I guess.

[–] oxjox@lemmy.ml 2 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Except that I never suggested people should be shamed by others or made fun of. I said if a person felt ashamed of themselves, that should motivate them.

[–] DrJenkem@lemmy.blugatch.tube 10 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

Do I need to repeat myself for a 3rd time? Do you not realize that "ashamed" is the adjective form of "shame"?

[–] oxjox@lemmy.ml 2 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Wow. You’re really stuck on not engaging in this conversation. You can lie to yourself all you want and pretend you’re somehow more virtuous than everyone else. I’m not taking the bait.

[–] DrJenkem@lemmy.blugatch.tube 6 points 8 months ago (1 children)

I'm frankly not even clear what the conversation is that you're trying to have. You claim, "I'm not saying we should shame people" and then go on to once again declare that "if people feel ashamed they'll lose weight". So which is it, is shame helpful as a weightloss tool or not? Spoiler alert: it's not.

To me it honestly seems like you accidentally triple downed on an objectively bad position and are trying to buzzword your way out of it with accusations of virtue signaling and trolling.

Just take the L and move on dude.

[–] oxjox@lemmy.ml 1 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

I don't know if you're trolling me or you genuinely don't understand words.

To shame someone is entirely different than to feel ashamed of yourself. If you kick a dog, you should feel ashamed of yourself without someone shaming you. If you forgo a healthy weight or lifestyle in favor of overconsumption and ignorance, you should feel ashamed of yourself without someone shaming you. Someone informing you that you are overweight is not the same as them shaming you.

I swear, people are so hell bent on virtue signaling that they lose all sense of reality.

[–] DrJenkem@lemmy.blugatch.tube 5 points 8 months ago (1 children)

To shame someone is entirely different than to feel ashamed of yourself.

Is it? The end result is a feeling of shame. And that feeling of shame, doesn't make people lose weight. I've now said it for the 4th time. But yeah, I'm the one that doesn't understand words.

If you kick a dog, you should feel ashamed of yourself without someone shaming you. If you forgo a healthy weight or lifestyle in favor of overconsumption and ignorance, you should feel ashamed of yourself without someone shaming you.

I see, so it's a moral failing of someone to be fat? Akin to kicking a dog? Wild take.

In the end, you're right. I'm not interested in having this conversation. Because this isn't a conversation about making people healthier, it's a moral conversation. And I don't think someone is immoral for having an eating disorder just as I don't think someone is immoral for having cancer.

If you would like to discuss actionable, material ways to help people I'm all in. If you want to larp as a televangelist screeching about the evils of being fat, I'm out.

[–] oxjox@lemmy.ml 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

LOL. You’re just arguing with yourself and your own made up conversation at this point. You don’t have to answer but I am curious if you’re an adult.

[–] DrJenkem@lemmy.blugatch.tube 2 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Literally quoting you lol.

I'm old enough to remember "asl?". Why do you ask about my age, looking for an easy way to dismiss me?

Out of curiosity, are you religious?

[–] BmeBenji@lemm.ee 5 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Let me preface what I want to say with the fact that I have previously lost half of my bodyweight largely because of a lack of body positivity in my head, and it’s still lacking.

You seem to be of the mind that people who have “unhealthy habits” should be shamed into living a healthier life. Where does that end? Should only people who physically appear to be unhealthy be shamed? Should people who have actual unhealthy bodies be shamed? Should people who have invisible unhealthy habits like hidden bulimia be shamed? Should people who have unhealthy mental conditions that are only diagnosable by experts be shamed?

I’m not being sarcastic or rhetorical, I’m genuinely curious where the line should be drawn. Some people are physically incapable of losing weight. Some people are perfectly healthy despite appearing overweight, yet they are treated like less valuable people because they don’t conform to beauty standards. Some people are notably ill despite fitting conventional beauty standards.

Body positivity is about eliminating social standards of beauty that ignore health, not about making unhealthy people think they’re better off being unhealthy. Furthermore, health is absolutely a luxury for many people. When survival is expensive, surviving with the time and money to take care of your body can be unattainable

[–] oxjox@lemmy.ml 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

You seem to be of the mind that people who have “unhealthy habits” should be shamed into living a healthier life.

I never said or suggested that and resent you putting those words into my mouth. No one should make fun of someone's weight. No one should shame someone because of their weight. You're making up a lot of ideas that I never presented. I'm not spending any more time dissecting everything you claim I said and defending myself. I think I was pretty clear about how our culture supports and celebrates being fat and I don't think that's beneficial for people's mental or physical health.

[–] BmeBenji@lemm.ee 5 points 8 months ago (1 children)

If you think the culture celebrates being unhealthy then you should know the only part of the culture that does that is the corporations that benefit off of it. The rest of us are trying to eliminate the unconscious bias people have against people who are “fat.”

If you see someone who you think is unhealthy because they “fat,” think again.

[–] oxjox@lemmy.ml 1 points 8 months ago

I am not observing the same reality you’re describing. I am seeing a culture of people who celebrate themselves and others who are severely obese, as if that’s a good thing. I have witnessed first hand that people are trying to gain weight because they believe it’s attractive and empowering. I have witnessed discussion that celebrates laziness and consumerism as goals to be rewarded over hard work and physical and mental well being.

I agree that corporate propaganda is a portion of this culture and I’m saying that we all need to recognize that we’ve been brain washed. More so, the propaganda is coming from people who already feel bad about themselves and are forcing others to accept them and their disinterest in being healthy.

“I’m fat and don’t care to lose weight, you should celebrate me and you should be like me too.” Apparently, anyone who chimes back suggesting they go to a doctor and get a health check is “shaming” them. You have to support them, you have to say “you do you, live your best life”, etc otherwise you’re disparaging them. It’s not about you giving a shit about that person, it’s about you virtue signaling so no one can judge you.

[–] SteposVenzny 8 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Do you think short people are living an unhealthy lifestyle?

[–] intensely_human@lemm.ee 2 points 8 months ago

They are if they try to use delusion to make themselves feel better.

[–] intensely_human@lemm.ee 2 points 8 months ago

Fucking amen

[–] TheAlbatross@lemmy.blahaj.zone 36 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

I'm a man, I'm 5'5" and I'm far beyond caring about my height. It bothered me in high school but I found out shortly after it really doesn't matter that much if you carry yourself confidently.

That said, I've seen a number of other cis men find confidence in themselves by using short king self referentially and hearing people they want to date celebrate "short kings", so it seems to be a useful term. I've also seen a number of trans men find it to be a confidence boosting term, combating the dysmorphia of their perceived height deficiency.

I'll revel in such things with my friends for laughs, but, ultimately, it doesn't do much for me, but I like seeing what it's done for others.

[–] intensely_human@lemm.ee 22 points 8 months ago

I think that “championing body positivity” for any class of adult humans is undignified. I think that doing a special extra thing for people in order to reverse the polarity of a judgment about that aspect of them is cruelly mocking them for that aspect of them.

Perhaps there’s something about that short guy that’s actually awesome, and doesn’t require childish lies and role-playing to communicate.

If someone called me “small dick king” I would hate them forever, despite whatever positive intentions they might have had when they said it. Do not make my weakness the key point of my persona, even if you include that awkward attempt at “positivifying” it. Just call me “Intensely Human, master wordsmith” or something that’s actually positive. Don’t treat me like I’m a five year old, using keywords to remap my negative qualities into positive ones.

The whole idea of using a term, that’s special to short men, to “champion” (verbing nouns is horrible) body positivity in short men, makes me feel nauseous.

If we want to respect short men, let’s do so in action, not in word choice.

[–] JokeDeity@lemm.ee 16 points 8 months ago

I'm on the tall side of average (tall to some, average to others, short to few), and to me it's always sounded like it's mocking short guys, and if I were short I don't think I'd want to be called that.

[–] FiskFisk33@startrek.website 11 points 8 months ago

if you highlight a feature as "now its positive", what you're actually saying "normally it's negative"

[–] KRAW@linux.community 9 points 8 months ago

Personally I do not let internet trends affect my behavior out in the real world. Why is that? Because if I use the term "short king" anywhere in the real world, 99% of people won't know what I'm talking about. Until you hear a real person say it (that means not on lemmy, not on twitter, not on dating apps, etc. or people you meet through these platforms) you can assume that there is no real impact to be had there. I think we give way too much credit to the internet for affecting real life trends. Most people don't care about these cute terminologies people come up with, and neither should you. The term was made to get someone attention, not to make short people feel better.

[–] CrimeDad@lemmy.crimedad.work 8 points 8 months ago

I'm a 5'7” guy and I absolutely support this kind of monarchism. God save the king.

[–] Aggravationstation@feddit.uk 8 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

I don't remember women being taller than their partners being that big of a deal, until people making fun of it became a meme on the internet.

The short king thing is just another meme on the internet.

[–] forgotmylastusername@lemmy.ml 3 points 8 months ago (1 children)

The internet made a whole lot of things a big deal. Then convinced guys they were the victims. Then filled their heads with extremist ideologies. What a wild past 10-15 years.

[–] Aggravationstation@feddit.uk 1 points 8 months ago

Yea it seems the internet became like a series of echo chambers rather than the democratic exchange we thought it would be.

[–] shasta@lemm.ee 7 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

I'm a relatively short guy at 5'6". My take on this is firstly that I dislike being called "king" because it sounds patronizing, especially by someone who knows nothing about me (that just feels insincere). Secondly, I'm comfortable, even happy, with my height. There have been many times I've been glad that I wasn't taller. It's kinda funny watching taller folks hitting their heads on things and complaining about cars being too small.

With my shortness being accepted by myself, someone else randomly pointing it out by explicitly calling me a "short king" in an effort to promote body positivity makes me think that in order for them to be recognizing shortness as a potentially negative trait means they likely thought of it as a negative in the past and are now patting themselves on the backs for being "enlightened" and subtly shaming others who still haven't "evolved" to their level. It feels like less of a compliment and more of a circle jerk.

Also, I don't feel like shortness needs any championing. Going back to the topic of obesity in the discorse of body positivity, I think it's a great idea to treat people as people regardless of weight. But I think the implied premise stated by OP is flawed in this regard. I do think being happy with being overweight is different than being happy about being short. There are no apparent benefits to being overweight, since it generally increases risk factors in all kinds of medical issues. With this in mind, body positivity regarding weight should focus on encouraging others to lose weight without shaming them. The same is not true of being short. Besides the impossibility of people making themselves taller even if they wanted to, there's no negative to a person's well-being or quality of life because of it.

I can't remember any time in my life that I've ever been called short as an insult either. This post just seems to be attempting to fix a non-issue. In summary, I would rather no one speak the words "short king" at all. Just go with "you're such a badass" if you wanna give a compliment.

[–] nondescripthandle@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

I dont have a problem with the phrase but I don't think ive ever heard it unironically or outisde of joking situatuons. Which is right about where the state of body positivity for men ends up.

Pro tip. Never tell people that even if someone is an asshole calling them small dicked is body shaming, unless you want all those people to instantly assume you're telling on yourself and then body shame you for that.

[–] FriendBesto@lemmy.ml 7 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Who keeps coming up with this bullshit labels? It is like kindergarten.

My advise?

Words only get traction if they are used.

Whether you are short or not, ignore them. Do not use them.

Best way to win at that never ending game is to simply not play.

[–] AceFuzzLord@lemm.ee 7 points 8 months ago (1 children)

As someone who is a few inches below average height where I live, I personally wouldn't like being called a "short king". Also, fuck those over 6 foot men for driving up the average height and unintentionally making me have an irrational annoyance because I'm short.

[–] terminhell@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 points 8 months ago

Sorry 😔

It's not all roses up here either. I'm 6'4". Not NBA competitive in height, but well above the average. Finding clothes, shoes etc is a royal pita. Some amusement park rides I can't fit in. Having to duck a lot and having to be generally more aware of the height of doorways and hanging light fixtures. Also having people in stores asking me to grab stuff from upper shelving gets old too.

[–] BearOfaTime@lemm.ee 5 points 8 months ago

Oh god, this kind of moral grandstanding is just cringeworthy, let alone as a false concern for others.

It screams "I need the approval of others or I feel bad about my genetics over which I have no control".

If someone doesn't like how I look, oh well, that's life. Seems this is a lesson most people learn in grade school - some people aren't going to like you, you're not going to like some people.

Further, if we're talking about physical attractiveness, that's something all over the place, and something over which we have no control.

Attraction isn't a choice - what you do about it is.

[–] Feyd@programming.dev 3 points 8 months ago

I loath it and the only thing I would think if someone called me it is that they have an uncomfortable fixation on my height. I think at the very best it is obnoxious.

[–] TheV2@programming.dev 3 points 8 months ago

I know people mean it well and I respect that. But it's a little indirect insult, when their first reaction is to assume that you feel bad about it and to patronize you.

Of course there are people with that mindset among short dating men who often aggressively blame women's standards. So I try to be not too upset about it.

[–] dillydogg@lemmy.one 3 points 8 months ago

This ain't short king energy

[–] phorq@lemmy.ml 3 points 8 months ago

I'm 5'4" and the term just makes me cringe. I don't normally think about my height unless someone else brings it up or I need to reach the top shelf, but I don't need encouragement in that case... just a ladder.

[–] Sam_Bass@lemmy.ml 2 points 8 months ago

short just negates any positivety

[–] Hadriscus@lemm.ee 2 points 8 months ago

In french, "short" is petit, which translates to small -there is no distinction between "small as in short" and "small as in small" other than context. Imho this plays a bit in how it's perceived : it's a less specific term than the english "short" while at the same time being linked with general smallness, which has some power connotations.

I think "short king" is trying too hard to reclaim a word, and in the process makes it sound more problematic than it was in the first place.