this post was submitted on 14 May 2024
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[–] redcalcium@lemmy.institute 13 points 6 months ago (5 children)

Japanese car manufacturers actually sell a lot of EVs... in Japan. They don't seem to be interested in selling those mini EVs abroad.

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[–] Suoko@feddit.it 12 points 6 months ago

And people don't really care about it . Let the wheel spin and get as much as you can while you ride, don't think about next drivers.

[–] CrimeDad@lemmy.crimedad.work 9 points 6 months ago

Seems kind of spurious to call lobbying sabotage as if the politicians being lobbied are machines and not human beings doing what they've been elected to do as nominally bourgeois party members.

[–] PanArab@lemmy.ml 9 points 6 months ago (1 children)

At this rate Saudi Arabia will beat Japan on EVs. A very big claim but I have cause to believe it.

[–] iwilljustforget@lemmy.ml 3 points 6 months ago (1 children)

The Saudis are also huge investors in Lucid Motors .

[–] PanArab@lemmy.ml 2 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Lucid already started making EVs in Saudi Arabia. And they also have investments in Human Horizons and an EV manufacturing deal with Hyundai.

[–] umbrella@lemmy.ml 6 points 6 months ago (1 children)

is that purely because they can't make them well or is there another reason?

honestly the japanese EV ive been in felt decent?

[–] TassieTosser@aussie.zone 7 points 6 months ago (3 children)

I know Toyota is still ragging on EVs because they invested a lot into hydrogen tech and want that to be the next big thing instead. But I didn't know Honda, Mazda and Suzuki also under-invested.

[–] JohnnyCanuck@lemmy.ca 4 points 6 months ago

Honda is full-on for hydrogen as well.

[–] fine_sandy_bottom@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 6 months ago (4 children)

I don't really understand the hatred for hydrogen honestly.

It seems like a great tech. There are huge hydrogen facilities being built in Western Australia to crack hydrogen from sea water.

[–] psud@aussie.zone 7 points 6 months ago (1 children)
  1. Almost all hydrogen is made from fossil fuels, it's much cheaper than green hydrogen, so you can guess what people would fuel their hydrogen cars with
  2. Electricity to hydrogen to electricity is really wasteful, you get less than a third the energy than you would if you went electricity to battery to electricity
  3. It's really difficult to store and transport, it is very very low density. Being the smallest atom hydrogen can leak from practically any container or pipe, but that doesn't compare to (2) above

I think Toyota only promoted hydrogen because they knew it would give internal combustion more time. Toyota are really good at internal combustion engines

Almost all hydrogen is made from fossil fuels,

Presently yes. It's a by-product of natural gas production. There hasn't been much of a market for it. In Australia there's $230b of green hydrogen production projects on the table. Just one of which in Western Australia is going to produce 3.5m tonnes of green hydrogen per year.

Electricity to hydrogen to electricity is really wasteful,

Yes but electricity transport is very wasteful. There's plenty of sun in Western Australia, falling in desert areas where land for solar arrays is practically free.

It’s really difficult to store and transport,

There's problems yes, but the industry believes these are solvable problems. Toyota is the largest vehicle manufacturer in the world. Japan has several other very large vehicle manufacturers. They're all betting on hydrogen. They've invested $2.3b in a hydrogen supply chain which is already shipping hydrogen.

I think Toyota only promoted hydrogen because they knew it would give internal combustion more time.

Hydrogen doesn't provide power through "internal combustion". A hydrogen fuel cell produces energy by running hydrogen over a catalyst which produces water and electrical energy.

[–] zagaberoo 3 points 6 months ago (1 children)

It is great tech, but there are serious downsides too.

  • storage and handling: Hydrogen is a tiny atom, so it leaks like nobody's business. Even liquid hydrogen is terribly low-density which makes pretty much a hard limit on storage density, unlike battery tech which can at least hypothetically dramatically improve. Pressure vessels suck. They have to be crazy sturdy and roughly spherical which places major design limitations on vehicles that use them.
  • distribution: EVs can limp by on sparse fast charging stations and home charging while better infrastructure builds out. Electrical supply is already ubiquitous. Who's going to want a hydrogen vehicle (which you can absolutely already buy, nobody's stopping you in the US at least) with so few fueling options? The upfront investment to bootstrap a market with hydrogen stations to the point of even competing with crappy EV charging is enormous.
  • no onboard energy recovery: Regenerative braking is an incredible benefit on its own.
  • industry synergy: EV manufacture benefits from tons of other industries investing in battery tech. The tide lifts all boats.

There are solutions as with any tech, but the transition picture with hydrogen is a lot lot worse than EVs. The least worst option tends to win.

[–] fine_sandy_bottom@discuss.tchncs.de 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I don't have a good understanding of the storage and handling aspect, other than to say I think most of the leakage is from embrittlement, for which the primary defense is ceramic coatings, or periodically baking the pressure vessel. That is to say it seems like a manageable problem. Design limitations are also manageable IMO. Ok it's unfortunate it can't be made into any shape like batteries but it's also not significantly worse than a fuel tank.

For distribution, of course there's no network if no one is driving hydrogen cars. It's not that much of a leap to imagine that gas stations will start selling hydrogen surely.

Regenerative braking is possible for HEVs. The Toyota Mirai has it.

I don't really follow you with industry synergy. Like people are using batteries so batteries are best? What if we hit peak Lithium (or China puts the squeeze on)? In that case it would be better to have an alternative up your sleeve.

the transition picture with hydrogen is a lot lot worse than EVs.

That may be your opinion but I'm not convinced. Japan and Australia are going all in on Hydrogen. I don't know much about this, but it seems like there's plenty of smart people who believe it's viable enough to invest entire countries economic futures on.

[–] zagaberoo 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

None of the points you make are wrong, it's just a lot more uphill for hydrogen looking at the total picture. With almost every issue there is a way forward for hydrogen, but EVs are already significantly farther along the curve. It's hard to overcome that kind of snowballing. Only time will tell!

IMO EVs are going great but adoption / implementation is struggling in some use cases, and hydrogen might be a nice alternative.

[–] OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip 3 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I'll layer on to the other replies which are spot on...

One reason I've soured on hydrogen is that it's overall much less efficient than battery as an energy storage mechanism.

This is a really in depth article about a study that found that "well to wheel" efficiency of battery EVs was 70-80% and with hydrogen it's 25-30%.

I was initially excited about hydrogen as energy storage for renewable sources, but battery tech has improved and is improving.

Also, one of the major advantages of a BEV for me is the ability to charge at home, possibly from energy generated by my own panels. Even if there were solutions for me to generate my own hydrogen, I'd rather lose 20-30% of that energy with a BEV than lose 70-75% with a FCEV.

I've provided a rebuttal for the other replies which you might find interesting.

In a scenario where you're considering using roof-top solar to produce hydrogen for your car then yes, the inefficiency of cracking hydrogen from water makes it unappealing.

The thing is, I don't think most of the world has access to roof-top solar and the portion that does will diminish as population and population density increases.

If you consider for example this project in Western Australia covering 15,000km2 it makes a lot more sense. The land (and associated sun light) is practically free. Hydrogen is a far more cost effective method of energy storage to get the energy from middle-of-nowhere-west-aus to market.

I guess one way to look at it is that hydrogen is a better option if the cost of the solar energy is less than a third of what it would be if you produced it nearby.

[–] ulterno@lemmy.kde.social 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

It probably has to do with some of the engineering problems with containing hydrogen.
It definitely has a lot to do with influential people bandwagoning onto Elon Musk et al. trashing EVs

[–] fine_sandy_bottom@discuss.tchncs.de 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Every tech has problems.

"Oh we couldn't possibly make an electric vehicle because there's nowhere to recharge it"

There are problems storing hydrogen but we've been working on mitigating those problems.

Australia has $230b worth of hydrogen projects on the board. Do you think no one involved in any of those projects has realised that it's not possible to store hydrogen?

[–] ulterno@lemmy.kde.social 0 points 6 months ago

Do you think...

No I'm not thinking about that.
I'm just trying to reason between public sentiment and over here, trying to say that public sentiment has less to do with actual technical viability and more to do with random comments from influential people.

There are actually, many directions in which people are trying to find ways to make the H~2~ storage viable for specific applications..

[–] umbrella@lemmy.ml 1 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

i hear it has to do with the fact they don't have much space for solar?

[–] LainTrain@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 6 months ago

Great timeline isn't it

[–] mukt@lemmy.ml 6 points 6 months ago

Tesla and Tata Motors are exceptions noted, but noted highlighted in the article.

[–] MargotRobbie@lemm.ee 3 points 6 months ago (2 children)

The Japanese car companies put all their eggs in the hydrogen basket, despite their early head start in EV with the Toyota Prius and such, and as hydrogen looks to be more and more of a dead end due to transportation and safety concerns, of course they are going to be sandbagging EV adoption to buy time and catch up.

[–] Ragnarok314159@sopuli.xyz 2 points 6 months ago

China being a massive producer of EVs is also a large part of it. Japan and China have a long hatred of one another, but will sometimes set aside differences for simple things.

[–] Templa 2 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Care to share some sources regarding hytrogen safety?

[–] Kajika@lemmy.ml 2 points 6 months ago (1 children)

NEDO is a big public institution for renewable energy research. The budget is ~500M$ a year and they bet a lot in hydrogen : https://www.nedo.go.jp/english/index.html (https://www.nedo.go.jp/english/activities/activities_ZZJP_100096.html)

[–] Templa 1 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

That isn't what I asked for but thanks. Their comment implied hydrogen is unsafe and I asked sourced for that, because I couldn't find any.