Any tool that calls itself “open source” and uses proprietary encryption that they refuse to let any neutral third party review, should absolutely not be trusted.
this post was submitted on 01 May 2024
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Signal > Matrix/Element > RCS > SMS.
iMessage isn't in the equation because it only works on a single platform.
signal protocol is basically the opposite, open source but the company is hostile to 3rd party client development
They can't prevent 3rd party apps, so what's the issue?
From what I understand, they don't want 3rd party apps to use their servers.
Understandable actually. Server maintenance costs money and if a 3rd party chat app; which significantly has more usage than other forms of social media; is trying to connect to the server, they have to handle that traffic too. Remember, it is not just about data size, but also the sheer volume of connection to handle.
I think the solution is just P2P with each peer acting as a relay to the other too. The protocol needs to be designed in such a way that no-one in the middle can reply to send false acknowledgement so as to prevent sybil attack or other attack where a malicious actor is a part of the network.
My point is basically that matrix/element is arguable the much more ethical chat solution because of its openess still with a focus on security.
This is an often repeated piece of misinformation. The developer of gurk-rs, a third party Signal client, has even said this himself. The client presents itself with a completely identifiable name to the Signal servers - the Signal devs can see this and could easily block this client from connecting but they don't. This project has existed for at least 3+ years now.
There's a few clients for Signal, nobody is preventing developers from creating apps; there's Molly, gurk-rs, Axolotl, Flare, signal-cli, Pidgin (with the Signal plugin.
The problem is 3rd party clients don't implement all features because it takes a lot of work and they're created/developed by volunteers - just take a look at Matrix and how many clients support all features or even just group end-to-end encryption (E2EE). Last I checked many third party Matrix clients didn't support encrypted group messages, primarily just Element, the reference client built by the matrix developers. So you have the same problem on Signal that you have on Matrix.
In Matrix a direct chat is a group chat with two people.
Also I've used several clients and they all supported encryption.
In Matrix a direct chat is a group chat with two people.
You're right, I forgot how Matrix handled messages and the current state is that there's are at least 6 other clients that support E2EE - this is awesome.
That said, as soon as you look for a stable client that supports other features like Native 1:1 calls and Threads the only client listed is Element, check here: https://matrix.org/ecosystem/clients/
Side note: Looks like ~3 years ago a Fluffychat dev stated they would not implement E2EE in the app [0], this must have been around the time I was looking at other clients because I recall this one "looking" the best and might be viable for non-techy people to use/recommend. I'm glad they changed their mind and implemented E2EE. Time to take a look at it again.
[0] https://gitlab.com/KrilleFear/fluffychat/-/issues/25#note_423061121
There isn't a call feature completely specified as far as I can find. Therefor it isn't really possible to have cross client native calls.
It was introduced two years ago: https://element.io/blog/introducing-native-matrix-voip-with-element-call/
Looks like at least two other clients support 1:1 calls.
Do any of these also support SMS? I'll switch back if I can have my encrypted message comingle with my SMS messages. Signal dropping SMS was the primary reason I left.
Now to convince Grandma to use Signal
We successfully managed. Good times over here.
Meanwhile I can't even get my boomer mom to switch to Google Messages from Samsung Messages because she'd "have to relearn how to use it." Then she just continues to complain that she can't send messages over WiFi, and that when she sends or receives pictures over SMS they get compressed... 💢
I had several friends and family switched over, until they killed SMS support like idiots. I now know maybe one or two people using it, and barely use it anymore.
They killed SMS support? Maybe not in Germany as an exception, I still use Google messages to recive spam SMS.
Signal killed sms
Oh yeah sorry, I'm really stupid early in the morning. I read something else in this thread about Google Messages and just assumed it was related. I didn't even know Signal had SMS support, that honestly sounds like a good feature
Nah, the comment was referencing signal from two layers up in the conversation, when Google messages was only one layer up.
For me, the whole reason I switched to Signal was because it would do both encrypted and SMS. Then they repeatedly made terrible decision after terrible decision and when they dropped SMS I had zero reason to keep using it. I don't like that Google messages is run by Google, but at least I don't have yet another messaging app to deal with.
What about XMPP?
Matrix/element > signal > xmpp > telegram > RCS > SMS
I could settle for this but remove telegram as it's not even E2EE by default. It's basically facebook v2.
Guess what? Neither is matrix/element.
Private messages on Matrix have been end-to-end encryption (E2EE) by default since 2020 - https://matrix.org/blog/2020/05/06/cross-signing-and-end-to-end-encryption-by-default-is-here/
For anyone considering Telegram for privacy:
- Telegram doesn't default to encryption. All your messages are stored and can be viewed by anyone with enough privileges on Telegram's infrastructure.
- Telegram's "secure" 1-1 messages are limited to the point of being useless and not worth using. It's a dark design pattern created to discourage their use, ensuring you give them all your data.
- Telegram doesn't support E2EE group messages.
TL;DR - Matrix is more private than Telegram.
Where's the XMPP commenters.. The floodgates will open
disclaimer: i barely know what im talking about here so if any of the language in this post is inaccurate feel free to reach out
It's correct, although I'm surprised that there isn't even a FOSS implementation of the unencrypted part.
Hopefully you made this in GIMP
impgflip.com, with full love to the community GIMP is ass at making memes
I'm not sure I understand it fully either, but what I do know about this topic is certainly disappointing
Typical Google fuckery
"Android is open source"
puts kilos worth of proprietary software into it, so people can still be tracked
blessed be the lineageos
Rcs isn't a open source but an open standard. Two very different things.
Open standard: anyone can use the standard but could be proprietary/closed source
Open source: anyone can edit/review the code and forket it if they want to.
The issue with RCS currently is that Google won't release the API for it on android and only allows Samsung to use it for their app. Another part is that their encryption is based on signal and released a white paper about it.
Now it's understandable why people would distrust Google. But apple is currently trying to add e2ee to the open standard (google also tried in the past but failed).
Mind you the only reason apple is even implementing RCS is because China is forcing them to. Since any new 5g devices must support rcs to be certified in china.
I hope this helps. Also have a android turtle from the blob!
this true, ty for the clarification
ill leave the meme as is (in quotes) since that was the thrust of the propaganda i saw 18 months ago
seems like a term that is intentionally thrown around to make things sound secure and cool when it’s not.
Np hope you have a great day!
-switches to signal or Matrix-
XMPP is better despite it's flaws privacy-wise, since so much data gets "hogged back" to matrix.org (tbf it's a similar case with lemmy.world but Lemmy at least didn't receive funding from a company most likely linked to Mosad). Also has more lightweight servers in general.
Isn't like the entire point of Matrix that it's end to end encrypted, thus rendering any data servers acquire useless?
You could make the metadata argument, but having one node aware of even most transactions is better than having one node aware of all of them.