this post was submitted on 21 Apr 2024
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I love programming but I hate the programming industry (www.deathbyabstraction.com)
submitted 7 months ago by mao@lemmy.sdf.org to c/programming@programming.dev
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I don't entirely subscribe to the first paragraph – I've never worked at a place so dear to me that spurred me to spend time thinking about its architecture (beyond the usual rants). Other than that, spot on

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[–] Mikina@programming.dev 39 points 7 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (2 children)

I had the same issue with gamedev industry, but thankfully Ive very quickly realized that's how work works, and you usually have a choice - either earn a good living being a code monkey, or find a job in a small company that has passion, but they won't be able to afford paying you well, or do it in your free time as a hobby. Capitalism and passion doesn't work together.

So I went to work part-time in cybersecurity, where the money is enough to reasonably sustain me, and use the free time to work on games in my free time. Recently, Ive picked up an amazing second part time job in a small local indie studio that is exactly the kind of environment I was looking for, with passion behind their projects - but they simply can't afford to pay a competitive wage. But I'm not there for the money, so Ibdon't mind and am happy to help them. Since there are no investors whose pocket you fill, but the company is owned by a bunch of my friends, I have no issue with being underpaid.

But it's important to realize this as soon as possible, before trying to make a living with something you're passionate about will burn you out. A job has one purpose - earn you a living. Companies will exploit every single penny they can out of you, so fuck them, don't give them anything more than a bare minimum, and keep your energy for your own projects.

And be carefull with trying to earn a living on your own - because whatever you do, no matter how passionate are you, if it's your only income and your life depends on it, you will eventually have to make compromises to get by. It's better to keep money separate from whatever you like doing, and just keep your passion pure.

EDIT: Oh, I forgot to mention one important thing - I'm fortunate to not have children, share living costs with a partner, and live in a city with good public transport, so no need for a car, and free healthcare. I suppose that makes it a lot more easier to get by with just a part time.

[–] heeplr@feddit.de 20 points 7 months ago

either earn a good living being a code monkey, or find a job in a small company that has passion

crazy idea: let's publicly fund FOSS projects so devs working on stuff they like with a passion can actually make a good living and enable sustainable non-profits to hire expertise, marketing and all the stuff a company needs

the result would be actually good software and happy devs

[–] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 6 points 7 months ago

Capitalism and passion don't work together

Unless, of course, you're passionate about capitalism. ;)

[–] Mikina@programming.dev 21 points 7 months ago (4 children)

I'm starting to think that "good code" is simply a myth. They've drilled a lot of "best practices" into me during my masters, yet no matter how mich you try, you will eventually end up with something overengineered, or a new feature or a bug that's really difficult to squeeze into whatever you've chosen.

But, ok, that doesn't proove anything, maybe I'm just a vad programmer.

What made me sceptical however isn't that I never managed to do it right in any of my projects, but the last two years of experience working on porting games, some of them well-known and larger games, to consoles.

I've already seen several codebases, each one with different take on how to make the core game architecture, and each one inevitably had some horrible issues that turned up during bugfixing. Making changes was hard, it was either overengineersled and almost impenetrable, or we had to resort tonugly hacks since there simply wasn't a way how to do it properly without rewriting a huge chunk.

Right now, my whole prpgramming knowledge about game aechitecture is a list of "this desn't work in the long run", and if I were to start a new project, I'd be really at loss about what the fuck should i choose. It's a hopeless battle, every aproach I've seen or tried still ran into problems.

And I think this may be authors problem - ot's really easy to see that something doesn't work. " I'd have done it diferently" or "There has to be a better way" is something that you notice very quickly. But I'm certain that watever would he propose, it'd just lead to a different set of problems. And I suspect that's what may ve happening with his leads not letting him stick his nose into stuff. They have probably seen that before, at it rarely helps.

[–] andyburke@fedia.io 18 points 7 months ago (1 children)

We have an almost total lack of real discipline and responsibility in software engineering.

"Good enough" is the current gold standard, so you get what we have.

If we were more serious there wouldn't be 100 various different languages to choose from, just a handful based on the requirements and those would become truly time worn, tested and reliable.

Instead, we have no apprenticeships, no unions, very little institutional knowledge older than a few years. We are pretending at being an actual discipline.

[–] kbin_space_program@kbin.run 10 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Best project Ive worked on, we went and implemented a scrict code standard, based on the code standard that a firm that contracted my team to do the work had.

Worked perfectly. Beautiful, maintainable code. Still used today without major reworks, doesnt need it. Front end got several major updates, but the back end uses what is now called microservice architecture, and we implemented it long before the phrase was common.

Got the opportunity to go back to it this year. Devs with the 2nd firm not only ignored all of the documentation we put out, they ignored their own coding standards document.

[–] floofloof@lemmy.ca 6 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Documentation? Coding standards? What are these?

[–] Kissaki@programming.dev 2 points 6 months ago

When I miss them I create them. Then they're there.

[–] magic_lobster_party@kbin.run 10 points 7 months ago (1 children)

There’s bad code and then there’s worse code. “Best practices” might help you to avoid writing worse code.

Good code might appear occasionally. In the rare event when it’s also useful, people will start to have opinions about what it should do. Suddenly requirements change and now it’s bad code.

[–] nous@programming.dev 6 points 7 months ago (2 children)

“Best practices” might help you to avoid writing worse code.

TBH I am not sure about this. I have seen many "Best practices" make code worst not better. Not because the rules themselves are bad but people take them as religious gospel and apply them to every situation in hopes of making their code better without actually looking at if it is making their code better.

For instance I see this a lot in DRY code. While the rules themselves are useful to know and apply they are too easily over applied removing any benefit they originally gave and result in overly abstract code. The number of times I have added duplication back into code to remove a layer of abstraction that was not working only to maybe reapply it in a different way, often keeping some duplication.

Suddenly requirements change and now it’s bad code.

This only leads to bad code when people get to afraid to refactor things in light of the new requirements.Which sadly happens far to often. People seem to like to keep what was there already and follow existing patterns even well after they are no longer suitable. I have made quite a lot of bad code better by just ripping out the old patterns and putting back something that better fits the current requirements - quite often in code I have written before and others have added to over time.

[–] magic_lobster_party@kbin.run 3 points 6 months ago (1 children)

For instance I see this a lot in DRY code.

DRY is one of the most misunderstood practices. If you read pragmatic programmer (where DRY was coined), they make it clear that DRY doesn’t mean “avoid all repetition at all cost”. Just because two pieces of code look identical doesn’t necessarily mean they are the same. If they can grow independently of each other, then they’re not repetitions according to DRY and should be left alone.

[–] nous@programming.dev 3 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Yup, and that is because people only ever lean DRY coding by its name. It is never really what it originally meant, when to use it and more importantly when not to use it. So loads of people apply it religiously and over use it. This is true of all the popular catchy named methodologies/principals etc.

[–] magic_lobster_party@kbin.run 2 points 6 months ago

The damning thing about DRY is that it’s so satisfying. It’s like a fun little puzzle.

[–] Dark_Arc@social.packetloss.gg 2 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

This only leads to bad code when people get to afraid to refactor things in light of the new requirements.Which sadly happens far to often. People seem to like to keep what was there already and follow existing patterns even well after they are no longer suitable. I have made quite a lot of bad code better by just ripping out the old patterns and putting back something that better fits the current requirements - quite often in code I have written before and others have added to over time.

Yup, this is part of what's lead me to advocate for SRP (the single responsibility principle). If you have everything broken down into pieces where the description of the function/class is something like "given X this function does Y" (and unrelated things thus aren't unnecessarily coupled) it makes reorganization of the higher level logic to fit the current requirements a lot easier.

For instance I see this a lot in DRY code. While the rules themselves are useful to know and apply they are too easily over applied removing any benefit they originally gave and result in overly abstract code. The number of times I have added duplication back into code to remove a layer of abstraction that was not working only to maybe reapply it in a different way, often keeping some duplication.

Preach. DRY is IMO the most abused/mis-understood best practice particularly by newer programmers. DRY is not about compressing your code/minimizing line count. It's about ... avoiding things like writing the exact same general (e.g., a sort) algorithm inline in a dozen places. People are really good at finding patterns and "over fitting" making up abstractions that make no sense.

[–] nous@programming.dev 5 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Yup, this is part of what’s lead me to advocate for SRP (the single responsibility principle).

Even that gets overused and abused. My big problem with it is what is a single responsibility. It is poorly defined and leads to people thinking that the smallest possible thing is one responsibility. But when people think like that they create thousands of one to three line functions which just ends up losing the what the program is trying to do. Following logic through deeply nested function calls IMO is just as bad if not worst than having everything in a single function.

There is a nice middle ground where SRP makes sense but like all patterns they never talk about where that line is. Overuse of any pattern, methodology or principle is a bad thing and it is very easy to do if you don't think about what it is trying to achieve and when applying it no longer fits that goal.

Basically, everything in moderation and never lean on a single thing.

[–] Dark_Arc@social.packetloss.gg 1 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Hmmm... That's true, my rough litmus test is "can you explain what this thing does in fairly precise language without having to add a bunch of qualifiers for different cases?"

If you meet that bar the function is probably fine/doesn't need broken up further.

That said, I don't particularly care how many functions I have to jump through or what their line count is because I can verify "did the function do the thing it says it's supposed to do?" after it's called in a debugger. If it did, then I know my bug isn't there. If it didn't, I know where to look.

Just like with commits, I'd rather have more small commits to feed through git bisect than a few larger commits because it makes identifying where/when a contract/test case/invariant was violated much more straight forward.

[–] Kache@lemm.ee 8 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Good code is code that's easy to delete.

I'm not a game dev, but it's got a reputation for being more of a software engineering shit show than other software industries, which your story only reinforces.

[–] magic_lobster_party@kbin.run 5 points 6 months ago

Good code is code that's easy to delete.

This is why there’s nothing more permanent than a temporary fix.

[–] Dark_Arc@social.packetloss.gg 3 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I'll contest their is such a thing as good code. I don't think experienced devs always do the best job at passing on what works and what doesn't though. Universities certainly could do more software engineering/architecture.

My personal take is that SRP (the single responsibility principle) is the #1 thing to keep in mind. In my experience DRY (do not repeat yourself) often takes precedence over SRP -- IMO because DRY is easy to (mis-)understand -- and that ends up making some major messes when good/reasonable code is rewritten into some ultra-compact (typically) inheritance or template-based mess that's "fewer lines of code, so better."

I've never regretted using composition (and thus having a few extra lines and a little bit more boilerplate) over inheritance. I've similarly never regretted breaking down a function into smaller functions (even if it introduces more lines of code). I've also never regretted generalizing code that's actually general (e.g., a sum N elements function is always a sum N elements function).

The most important thing with all of these best practices though is "apply it if it makes sense." If you're writing some code and you've got a good reason to have a function that does multiple things ... just write the function, don't bend over backwards doing something really weird to "technically" abide by the best practice.

[–] magic_lobster_party@kbin.run 3 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

I've never regretted using composition (and thus having a few extra lines and a little bit more boilerplate) over inheritance.

I second this. It doesn’t necessarily eliminate bad code, but it certainly makes it more manageable.

Every time inheritance is used, it will almost certainly causes pain points that’s hard to revert. It leads to all these overly abstracted class hierarchies that give OOP a bad rep. And it can be easily avoided in almost all cases.

Just use interfaces if you really need polymorphism. Often you don’t even need polymorphism at all.

[–] roanutil_@programming.dev 18 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I am genuinely so thankful for my job. Small start up where the founder is funding the whole thing himself and actually works as a dev as he’s able.

The amount of autonomy I’ve had since day 1 is wonderful. I put in a lot of time because I enjoy the work. My pay is a little low but not bad and usually increases by a lot each year. We’re 100% remote.

I just can’t imagine willingly leaving after reading the nonsense that most of you are dealing with. I got so lucky and you can pry my current job from my cold, dead hands.

[–] Daxtron2@startrek.website 6 points 7 months ago

Sounds pretty nice if it's something you enjoy! I miss being able to do 12 hr days on a project I was actually passionate about lol

[–] jkrtn@lemmy.ml 6 points 6 months ago

I am more alienated by the processes surrounding everything. If I had to do idiotic agile sprint bullshit and also write mind-numbingly boring code I would lose my mind. Luckily I have gotten away with making improvements in architecture so it is at least an interesting problem on occasion.

It sounds like this author would feel better working on open source, a passion project, or a deep academic paper. I think I'd prefer that also. I wish it were easier to live while doing that.

[–] onlinepersona@programming.dev 5 points 6 months ago

In a world where money reigns supreme, any job in a company required to make money will have to cut corners in favor of profit - unless a person is privileged enough to have free reign, which is very very rare (at least I've never seen it).

Anti Commercial-AI license

[–] pap1rus@lemmy.ml 5 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

That's called alienation/objectivation. Unfortunately we are and probably will be stuck with that for a long time to come.

[–] state_electrician@discuss.tchncs.de 4 points 6 months ago

20+ years writing code have taught me a few things. The first and most important is that every code base, given enough time, will end up being difficult to maintain and full of things you hate. And you might have written some of those things yourself. And I think that's fine. Striving for perfect, clean code is impossible, because the understanding of what that means changes over time. Code needs to do its job and be reasonably easy to maintain. That's what I strive for these days. And if that is too boring for you, you'll need to find a new job or write open source software. A company that decides to pay you isn't usually looking for your ideas about which tool or paradigm you get excited about. They want you to make them more money than they pay you. You can bemoan that, but it will be as effective as complaining that water is wet. I actually enjoy solving problems and luckily as tech lead I still get to do that, because they pass the real hard problems on to me. That's enough for me to enjoy my job. Of course the money helps too.

[–] menas@lemmy.wtf 2 points 6 months ago

Unionize