this post was submitted on 18 Feb 2024
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Previously LGPL, now re-licensed as closed-source/commercial. Previous code taken down.

Commercial users pay $99/year, free for personal use but each user has to make a free account after a trial period.

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[–] people_are_cute@lemmy.sdf.org 60 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (2 children)

If this project has other contributors, imagine how betrayed they must be.

Opening the project as FOSS until it becomes popular and then closing it to make money is such a scummy tactic

[–] SkyNTP@lemmy.ml 29 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Fork the last commit with a LGPL commit?

GPL mentions explicitly that it is irrevocable, where as LGPL doesn't mention anything about it. IANAL, but it looks like there is a case for irrevocable without violation of clauses by default https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/4012/are-licenses-irrevocable-by-default#4013

For people considering contributing to FOSS in the future, maybe check for irrevocable clauses? I wish licenses selectors https://choosealicense.com highlighted this part more clearly.

[–] lengau@midwest.social 4 points 9 months ago

If any contributors haven't signed a contract letting them close the source, this opens them up to lawsuits.

[–] bmaxv@noc.social 21 points 9 months ago (2 children)

@ebits21 #PySimpleGUI #python #opensource

🎶 Another bites the dust. 🎶

Moves like this are a bit... strange? It was on github. There are 1.8k forks, with intact LGPL. What is happening here? Is their dev work worth 99$/year ? Not saying people don't deserve to get paid for their work. I'm just not seeing the business case for this.

[–] ebits21@lemmy.ca 17 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

They claim that not enough people donated, hence the change in licensing. But yeah, I don’t see the business case. I imagine commercial devs will just move on to something else.

It’s just a wrapper for other GUI libraries.

That and I’m sure it’ll be forked.

[–] lukecooperatus@lemmy.ml 8 points 9 months ago

Yeah, if people didn't think it was worth donating to before, they sure as shit aren't going to pay for it now that it's also closed source. What's their value prop even supposed to be here?

[–] HKayn@dormi.zone 3 points 9 months ago (4 children)

How else do you expect their time to be paid for?

Donations?

[–] MadhuGururajan@programming.dev 4 points 9 months ago

Hey, A lot of people spent their precious free time to look at your project, test it out, and talking about it to their colleagues. How are you going to pay us for wasting however many minutes or hours of time spent on your supposedly open source project before you did the bait-and-switch?

(By "you" I meant the developer.)

[–] MadhuGururajan@programming.dev 2 points 9 months ago (1 children)

It's quite entitled and dishonest to expect free beta-testing, marketing, and clout from the use of FOSS as a shortcut for your product.

If you are sincere then you should know what you are getting into when you create that license.txt with LGPL terms on it.

[–] HKayn@dormi.zone 2 points 9 months ago (2 children)

It's quite entitled and dishonest to expect free beta-testing, marketing, and clout from the use of FOSS as a shortcut for your product.

Either show us where they voiced this expectation, or stop talking out of your ass.

[–] MadhuGururajan@programming.dev 3 points 9 months ago (1 children)

The entire FOSS community works for very little compensation. You're not special. Read the fucking room. A lot of people spend their free time building cool shit to share with the community. You're a prick if you think that you're in the right calling people in the FOSS community entitled.

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[–] MadhuGururajan@programming.dev 2 points 9 months ago

Right, people usually carry a banner stating their intentions clearly and unambiguously.

[–] bmaxv@noc.social 2 points 9 months ago (1 children)

@HKayn This may sound cold hearted and I swear I'm not:

There is no obligation for the world in general to pay someone for open source software. (right now)

Everyone should think long hard about writing software and donating time and effort because of this.

I don't like this state of things, I would prefer some kind of "general usefulness" tax financed grant thing.

[–] HKayn@dormi.zone 2 points 9 months ago (1 children)

And this is exactly why the dev of PySimpleGUI did what they did.

Whether they have a business case will depend on what happens on those forks. Will they be as maintained as the original was?

[–] MadhuGururajan@programming.dev 3 points 9 months ago

not enough people donated

Sounds like entitlement to me

[–] MadhuGururajan@programming.dev 2 points 9 months ago

Donations can give you hobby money. Not "multi-millionaire, going to retire" money. If people who start FOSS projects don't want to admit that, then they are just looking for free popularity/shortcut to success. They can stop abusing the FLOSS community just so they can make a quick buck.

[–] silver@lemmy.brendan.ie 17 points 9 months ago

This set of actions (making non Foss and deleting Foss code) will essentially blacklist it from any company that has used it in the past.

Last place I was at the process for getting legal to review and sign off on specific versions of a Foss was about 6 months, with one of the fields on the form being alternatives.

[–] taaz@biglemmowski.win 16 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Whether you are a Hobbyist User or Commercial User, you can start using PySimpleGUI at no cost. To get started with a 30-day trial period, first install Python and then

python -m pip install pysimplegui

...

You can try PySimpleGUI for 30 days, after which you will need to Sign Up. Hobbyist users sign up at no cost, and Commercial Users subscribe at $99/year. For more details, see PySimpleGUI.com/pricing.

How is this trial enforced?

[–] peak_dunning_krueger@feddit.de 15 points 9 months ago (1 children)

How is this trial enforced?

Since it's now closed source and they distribute what is possibly/probably/presumably a binary blob, the same way all the others are enforced. With some kind of DRM date checking whatever.

[–] XTL@sopuli.xyz 8 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Does pip really allow binary blobs? That effectively makes it zero security.

[–] elguaxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 9 months ago

Take a look at the Source Distribution files: https://pypi.org/project/PySimpleGUI/#files

As far as I can see, it's still all just Python.

[–] etrotta@programming.dev 4 points 9 months ago (1 children)

To be fair it has some valid use cases, take ruff for example.

But pip/pypi does not have any proper security at all, and just blocking binary blobs wouldn't make a difference when you can freely execute any python code during installation - Much like downloading an executable from any site online, you are expected to make sure you can trust whoever uploaded what you are downloading. You could say the same about other sites like GitHub too.

[–] XTL@sopuli.xyz 5 points 9 months ago

There is a fair difference still between source available and binary blob. The blob has essentially no chance of ever being audited.

[–] ebits21@lemmy.ca 6 points 9 months ago

The user has to have a key to use the software, no free account then no key after 30 days unless the developer paid for the key.

[–] HKayn@dormi.zone 11 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (11 children)

The amount of people who feel like they're entitled to the previous code and are calling the license change scummy make me sick.

This developer put their own free time into this project, they made sure to not accept anyone else's code, and they understandably felt they deserve to be paid for their time. Whether this was a smart move is another matter entirely.

The one case where I can understand being upset is if you donated shortly before this happened. But otherwise, you should really reflect on how you're giving back to the people who make the tools you feel oh so entitled to.

[–] ulkesh 11 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I wonder if you typed that with a straight face. If so then you are wildly out of touch with how FOSS and the democratization of FOSS development works.

You use words like “entitled” as a derogatory term when you clearly don’t understand that yes, the community is entitled because that’s how these FOSS licenses work. And people have every right to be upset when the status quo changes for a project they have also helped develop and helped get popular.

So either you are trolling, or you are clueless. Either way you should be ignored and this is as much time I’m going to waste writing this comment.

[–] HKayn@dormi.zone 3 points 9 months ago (1 children)

What exactly did the FOSS community lose right there?

They can still use the versions that were licensed to them. The forks are right there.

However, you are not entitled to the dev distributing those versions for you.

[–] MadhuGururajan@programming.dev 4 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Actually the LGPL legally binds the dev to distributing those versions. So you're just a troll. I am done replying to you but it has been fun watching you try to justify shit in the name of compensation.

[–] HKayn@dormi.zone 3 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

You've been unable to back up a single thing you said in this conversation with proof.

You had to walk back your accusations towards the dev, and you're unable to actually point to the passage in the LGPL that supposedly binds the dev.

All you're able to do at this point is call me a troll. You're a parasite in the FOSS community who expects the work of others to be provided to them for free in perpetuity, and it pains you to realize it can be taken away from you.

[–] MadhuGururajan@programming.dev 3 points 9 months ago (1 children)

You're a dumbass who can't read and doesn't understand foss.

[–] HKayn@dormi.zone 3 points 9 months ago (1 children)

And that's how we know you're out of arguments.

[–] MadhuGururajan@programming.dev 3 points 9 months ago

Who's we here? You're getting downvoted to oblivion because of your hostility. I am merely replying in kind.

[–] kogasa@programming.dev 10 points 9 months ago (1 children)

The previous code exists under an irrevocable open source license, so they are entitled to it. Also, fuck off.

[–] HKayn@dormi.zone 4 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Is the license revoked because the dev deleted the previous code on their side?

Of course it isn't. At least have your points make sense if you're gonna behave like an ass.

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[–] MadhuGururajan@programming.dev 8 points 9 months ago (3 children)

The amount of people who feel like they’re entitled to the previous code and are calling the license change scummy make me sick.

But you're not sick at the fact that they licensed it as LGPL just to get their product popular and then said "I got the eyeballs I wanted, time to milk this!"

This developer put their own free time into this project

When your code is open source the expectation is that you are sharing code with people for free so that the community can enjoy the work and hopefully you gain respect and popularity as your product matures and a lot of people utilize it. People might even fund you for your hard work if you become popular enough. Maybe a whole new product gets developed on top of your product and you become important. That's how a lot of successful open source projects work.

If you are entitled to quick success, we are entitled to our ideology around FLOSS.

they made sure to not accept anyone else’s code.

So they just wanted people to test their product and market them for free? Who's entitled here?

(Also that argument is not going to work in court when people sue them for violating LGPL terms)

and they understandably felt they deserve to be paid for their time

What about the compensation for people who beta-tested this product for free and recommended them to others?

But otherwise, you should really reflect on how you’re giving back to the people who make the tools you feel oh so entitled to.

The giving back part is increasing respect, popularity, and a community of contributors who will grow YOUR product for free. Don't act like this small project is a gift from God.

Also, the author literally didn't accept contributions. That just means they were looking for free marketing and eyeballs. As soon as it was convenient for them to pull the rug they did so without even thinking about the community. Who's the scumbag, you tell me?

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[–] wizzor@sopuli.xyz 3 points 9 months ago

Do you know if there were any other contributors to the project? I've always held the view that the tail of contributors should prevent relicensing under incompatible terms.

It's a shame you are being downvoted, although I don't (mostly) agree with you, I feel your opinion contributes positively to the discussion.

[–] ebits21@lemmy.ca 2 points 9 months ago

The previous code was released under lgpl so…. Yeah if you can find a copy of it you are entitled to it. That was the developer’s choice.

Taking all the old code down with a force push to GitHub suddenly is a bit futile since obviously there are ways to get the old source.

I’m not against developers getting paid, but there’s definitely a ‘rug-pulling’ aspect to this situation that leaves a bad taste.

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[–] Hector_McG@programming.dev 5 points 9 months ago

Although rug-pulls like this are dubious to say the least, neither should FOSS contributors be hauled over the coals simply because, to justify continuing to commit more and more time to a project. they need to generate some kind of revenue. If more FOSS advocates donated reasonable amounts of money to the projects they use, this kind of bollocks would be much less frequent, and the long term stability of projects would increase dramatically. Sadly, way to many people donate nothing. And way too many companies, as well.

[–] Vast_Emptiness@programming.dev 5 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

Bruh. This is why I hate all the open source license that are not GPL. Are not free software. I am not bother to pay for it. But I am bother to not see the code :(

[–] MadhuGururajan@programming.dev 3 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Only to a certain extent.

The problem is that a lot of software is very complex and requires full-time development/maintenance. It's simply not possible to work on stuff for free unless this is just a hobby and you can sustain yourself with a main job.

The main thing I have a problem with this instance is the following sequence of events

  1. The developer licensed it as LGPL.
  2. They did not accept ANY contributions to the code.
  3. The project became popular enough for people to post about in the fediverse (quite popular then, I guess)
  4. They got donations for their work, but apparently it was not enough.
  5. They removed the project from being accessible and moved to a paid only model.

This tells me:

  1. Their intention all along was to abuse FOSS community for popularity, traction, clout and free testing by people who are also doing this stuff in their free time.
  2. They got donations, but for whatever reason it was not enough for them. => Were they expecting to make retirement level income from their project which is in a crowded segment?
[–] Vast_Emptiness@programming.dev 2 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Yeah if you really care about FOSS you should use GPL and not MIT BDS and a multiple license. Because at the end of the day the code can became close source in just a second. That is the point of GPL and the Foss. I am willing to pay with money because I can. But I am not willing to pay with trust.

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[–] SatyrSack@lemmy.one 2 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Can anyone recommend a good alternative?

[–] suy@programming.dev 6 points 9 months ago
[–] fohrloop@fosstodon.org 2 points 9 months ago
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