this post was submitted on 12 Jan 2024
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after St. Louis police unions instructed officers to publicly display The Punisher's insignia (the mark of a lawless, fascist murderer) the comic book community was quick to point out the stupidity, and the frankly horrifying message sent by supposed peace officers endorsing a maniac. So it's a good thing The Punisher personally confirms he hates cops who see him as a friend… making every cop who "wears his mark" or calls themselves a "fan" look like shameful fool in the process.

-- Andrew Dyce, The Punisher Confirms: He HATES Cops Who Support Him

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[–] BestBouclettes@jlai.lu 34 points 10 months ago (4 children)

The punisher is a murdering lawless maniac but I don't think he's a fascist, is he?

[–] Alleywurds@kbin.social 20 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

I assume they mean "murderer of fascists?"

[–] Five@slrpnk.net 2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Has he ever been portrayed in comics killing fascists?

[–] Alleywurds@kbin.social 5 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I haven't actually read any Punisher, but it sounded more plausible than The Punisher being fascist

[–] Five@slrpnk.net 2 points 10 months ago

I haven't read a lot, but it would be interesting to see how corporate comics would write an 'antifa' Punisher. They would absolutely slander the movement, like with the Joker (Johann Most + L'Homme qui rit), the Flag Smasher, or Anarky. But it would still be a curious read.

[–] Dagwood222@lemm.ee 13 points 10 months ago

A fascist is someone who supports a single strong leader with total control of the nation. 'Dictator' was an actual position in the Roman Republic; the people could vote to give one man absolute power for a period of time. Makes sense if you're dealing with a natural disaster or invasion and don't have time to go through the usual channels. Fascism became popular in the chaos of the post WW1 era. Things were changing rapidly, and conservatives wanted to rein in the 'undesirables.' Ironically, the Communist Russian Revolution was a huge spur to the creation of numerous fascist parties across Europe.

Frank Castle, the Punisher, is not a fascist. He isn't interested in taking power for himself, and doesn't want a dictator. He often speaks of having the greatest respect for Captain America, the guy who always chooses the side of liberty and fair play. Frank knows that he's a criminal and a murderer. He just doesn't care. IMHO if he and the Joker were both locked up and unable to kill each other, the two would get along fine.

[–] Five@slrpnk.net 11 points 10 months ago (2 children)

How fascist he is depends on who is writing him. His symbol is literally a stylized Nazi totenkopf, and while he has never voiced support for totalitarian leaders, his solution to crime - escalating the violence - is consistent with fascist ideology.

[–] Dagwood222@lemm.ee 13 points 10 months ago

People used skulls as a symbol of death long before the Nazis.

[–] GBU_28@lemm.ee 4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

I don't see the relation? Not all skull motifs are a totenkopf.

Seems like they specifically changed it in Pre production

[–] dmention7@lemm.ee 11 points 10 months ago

I don't really see how he could be construed as one, other than the kneejerk "fascism is when bad things".

The whole point is that he's not like cops.

[–] tigeruppercut@lemmy.zip 18 points 10 months ago

Last time I went through US customs the agent checking me had his backpack behind him with a punisher patch (plus a thin blue line one, because of course he did). Gotta use true fashy believers to check all them damn immigrants and all that...

[–] BolexForSoup@kbin.social 15 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

The image is kind of wrong. The punisher does not hate cops. He doesn’t like cops that celebrate what he does.

I have read a lot of punisher over the years, and the thing that always infuriates me is how much handwringing there is by some of the writers that always ends up backsliding into “but it’s still pretty cool that he murders people with his super cool guns and a skull on his chest.” The only way to truly break from that image is to completely abandon who the punisher is and enter a new phase entirely that does not regress again. It needs to be like God of War 4. Kratos is not the same person he once was. Yes he is capable of violence, but he clearly does not relish it and does everything he can to avoid conflict as well as truly tries to teach his son that actions have consequences. He has had a spiritual change, essentially, and it is reflected in his actions and demeanor. No, he has not mastered it, no it is not perfect, but he is consistently trying to be better and grow. I cannot say the same for Frank Castle. It always becomes “…but I have to” when he’s barely tried anything else as he then instigates conflict.

Brief moments of “the punisher is actually kind of bad y’all“ that is always surrounded by constant firearm fetishization and glorifying murder/masculinity is just not convincing. No amount of little moments of clarity can fix that.

[–] IWantToFuckSpez@kbin.social 11 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

It's like all those non-Catholic Christians who display Crusader symbols. They are forgetting that the Crusaders would have murdered believers like them in a heartbeat. Plus the Crusaders probably killed more Christians than Muslims and Jews, since the Muslim conquerors would force the local Christian population to fight on their side.

[–] Endorkend@kbin.social 11 points 10 months ago (1 children)

There's a saying I first heard from cops in my country and then later saw pop up in several TV shows, the last one clear in memory being The Rookie.

The saying embodies that whenever cops decide to group together to the point of getting a symbol or name for said group, it's only a matter of time before they go to jail.

In corrupt countries, they may not actually go to jail, but the point is that whenever cops do this, criminality will always ensue.

[–] dylanmorgan@slrpnk.net 6 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I don’t know where the US fits in your consideration of corruption but cops very rarely go to jail here, even (especially?) when they form up around a symbol. Here’s one example: the long-lived murderous LA Sheriff’s Department gangs. https://knock-la.com/tradition-of-violence-lasd-gang-history/

[–] Endorkend@kbin.social 2 points 10 months ago

The point is that when they label themselves with a symbol or name, they up to some criminal shit already or before long.

And yes, sections of US police are corrupt as cops get away with murder on a daily basis.

Corruption doesn't need to mean they are on the take (although there's probably plenty that are), it can also simply mean that they turn any level of blind eye for their own or external groups.

[–] tacosanonymous@lemm.ee 7 points 10 months ago

Co-opting stuff isn’t about understanding.

[–] Dagwood222@lemm.ee 7 points 10 months ago

Cops are some of the biggest fan boys out there. The movie 'The French Connection*' inspired them to wear Popeye's hat and ankle holster. Magnum PI inspired them to grow mustaches. The TV show Hill Street Blues got them wearing turtlenecks.

*If you haven't seen it, watch 'The French Connection.' Great New York locations, Oscar winning actors, and one of the best car chases ever filmed.

[–] Texas_Hangover@lemm.ee 6 points 10 months ago (1 children)

You can be fascist, and lawless now? How does that work?

[–] Five@slrpnk.net 12 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

That's how it usually works. Consider Donald Trump.

[–] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

I saw a Don't Tread on Me sticker right next to a Thin Blue Line sticker the other day (on the back of a giant fuck-off Ford truck, of course) and was like "that dude needs to make up his fuckin' mind."

[–] millie@slrpnk.net 4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

I mean, to me the meaning of that juxtaposition is pretty clear.

The Gadsden flag highlights individual primacy, but the thin blue line sticker makes it clear that it's his individual primacy that he's concerned with. For an anti-authoritarian evoking that symbolism, the 'me' refers to the general autonomy of humanity or at least Americans, but in this case it probably literally refers to that specific individual's autonomy or to the autonomy of the United States as a country in a nationalistic sense.

He's basically just representing his subculture and thumping his chest about how nobody better tell him what to do or get in his way, while also showing that he's affiliated with a big gang. Whether he's aware of the racist speech the symbol is referencing or the symbol's deeper meaning is kind of up in the air, but it still probably wouldn't produce much conflict with his sense of nationalist autonomy in an authoritarian context regardless.

Honestly, it's that context that I think makes the association with Punisher inevitable. Whether the character supports the current gang in charge or not, he clearly believes in an authoritarian model of crime and punishment; that's the lens he views the world through and the impetus for his actions. If it's satire, it certainly doesn't read that way. Though, to be fair, the show is probably a lot more egregious in that regard than the comic (while also likely being more widely consumed).

Frank Castle supports authoritarian measures so much that he goes beyond what the legal system allows for. He literally names himself after an action designed to reinforce authoritarian hierarchy. Sounds pretty on the nose to me.

[–] BlackRoseAmongThorns@slrpnk.net 3 points 10 months ago (1 children)

What are the chances that this is about my last comments?

[–] Five@slrpnk.net 3 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

100% - welcome to SLRPNK and our culture of signal boosting and solidarity.