this post was submitted on 09 Jul 2023
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Seeing a big “politics” community in both lemmy.ml and lemmy.world just confuses me as to which I should be subscribing to and I don’t really want to subscribe to both.

Guess this is just a downside of federated instances? There’ll never just be one “/r/politics” on Lemmy?

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[–] andrewrgross@slrpnk.net 40 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I strongly prefer it.

It's a much more organic reflection of older systems. It used to be that there were local newspapers, national ones, and international ones. I want the same thing with my memes. I want a place I go to see what the hot movies and games across the world, and another where discussions are mostly people in my geography or who share a common set of tastes with me.

This idea that the internet should flatten the world into one monoculture has been, in my opinion, both naive and destructive to a lot of tastes that don't align with the dominant tastemakers.

[–] dan@upvote.au 5 points 1 year ago

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[–] brettvitaz@programming.dev 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

When I look at the many communities with the same names, I completely stops me from interacting with them. Most of the time I know they’re going to be copies of each other with a bunch of duplicate content reposted to infinity.

I think your example is interesting but i disagree with your assertion that it some how facilitates finding niche content.

For example it would be difficult to have to explicitly know that obscure-instance.xyz/c/games hosts content about 90’s graphic adventure games from the Netherlands and programming.dev/c/games is actually about game design and not games generally. A better way, IMO, is to just name your community what it is. Names likeadventure_games_nl and game_design offer a significantly better user experience. If we want to make the fediverse feel accessible to people, it has to be easy to find what you’re looking for.

This whole thing feels like crypto where everyone has their own coin and they only kind of work together if you have some kind of exchange and some people accept Bitcoin and not Doge. It’s just too complicated for non technical people.

[–] andrewrgross@slrpnk.net 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

First, if it helps, redundant communities will solve themselves. We're in a period where people are trying stuff out, but if one group is just a weaker duplicate of another, everyone will eventually just coalesce around the slightly better version.

As for the general complaint, I can see your rationale. But I think a better analogy instead of cryptocoins -- which were all essentially useless ponzi schemes and ego projects -- would be bars.

In theory, you don't need two (or more!) sports bars on the same block. But there's a reason they stay in business instead of one owner just expanding to serve twice as many customers. They have different vibes based on different people. One might dig soccer more, or have a better selection of craft brews. Even though they're superficially similar, if you ask your friend, "Hey, do you want to go to X?" It's not at all weird for them to say, "Eh... let's to Y. if you want, we can stop by X later."

You know what I mean?

[–] brettvitaz@programming.dev 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

The bar analogy is interesting but is missing the most important factor: All of the bars have the same name. The only difference is where they are located. Now I have to go to each one because I have no idea if they’re a soccer themed bar or a karaoke bar.

Even if the redundant communities somehow solve themselves (which I doubt), there will forever be an abandoned community polluting the search results because no one is going to delete it.

[–] andrewrgross@slrpnk.net 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

The name thing doesn't seem that complicated. I already know that !memes@slrpnk.net are gonna be lefty memes, and the memes at !memes@lemmy.ml will be generic, and so on.

There are some where it's less distinct. Technology@lemmy.world and technlogy@beehaw.org are not so easily differentiated, but at the moment they have totally different content on their frontpages, so I have no complaints. Over time, I expect both to evolve, most likely in different ways.

I think the search problem will get resolved over time. Currently, search is very rudimentary, and barely useful for finding new communities. As it becomes better and cataloging communities it can also become better at downranking or excluding communities below a certain activity level.

[–] brettvitaz@programming.dev 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

The name thing doesn't seem that complicated. I already know that !memes@slrpnk.net are gonna be lefty memes

Lol. I can only assume it’s a massive joke and I’m just not in on it. !memes@slrpnk.net in no way means “lefty memes”. It only proves my point

[–] andrewrgross@slrpnk.net 0 points 1 year ago

Well... are you subscribed to !memes@slrpnk.net?

I don't expect you to know that Gerry's Bar and Grill is a gay bar or that Fanatics is a Packers bar by their name. You find out by going there.

[–] curious_illusions@lemmy.fmhy.ml 16 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What's more annoying to me is the few users spamming every instance non stop with "engagement" content. Like dang bro chill this isn't about karma.

[–] Kushia@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Some people seem to have gotten the idea that Lemmy needs to grow and to do that it needs all this drivel posted to it. Not sure why tho.

[–] Casiraghi@feddit.it 2 points 1 year ago

Possibly because if comms stay empty for a long time, people will search for content elsewhere, and lemmy get forgotten.

Remember that many people come from reddit, and are searching for a place where new content is easy to find.

[–] DJDarren 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

To make matters worse, I'm on Beehaw, which has defederated from Lemmy.world, so I can't see the politics community on there even if I wanted to.

It's one thing having different instances, but quite another when users on one instance can't see the communities of another.

On the other hand, having two different communities does mean that people in my situation could still participate on one of those.

[–] ablackcatstail@lemmy.goblackcat.com 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I am new to this side of the fediverse. Why did Beehaw defederate?

[–] Cube6392 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Lemmy.world had open signups. There was a large influx of trolls that took advantage of the open signups to do so and then brigade Beehaw. The Beehaw admins like and respect the lemmy.world admin and anticipate defederation.

[–] Cube6392 10 points 1 year ago

Refederation! They anticipate refederation! DAMMIT

[–] VerPoilu@sopuli.xyz 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Beehaw defederated with lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works because both of those instances allow(ed?) registering without email verification/captcha. They said it is bringing bots and spams. Haven't seen this issue personally. I recommend being a member of an instance that still federates with both lemmy.world/sh.itjust.works and Beehaw.

[–] Heldenhirn@feddit.de 13 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I don't like it as well. People have to realize that Lemmy needs active members who are NOT part of the Nerd/tech bubble because they bring in a other type of content. I don't know enough about the feediverse protocols to know wether it's possible but what would help is if there where something like grouped communities consisting of multiple communities which are all about the same topic. Then you could search for e.g. "Cats" and it's shows you this grouped community which subscribes you to all cat content. I know that there are web based tools which already do a similar thing for a transfer from Reddit to Lemmy but those Groups would have to be integrated into Lemmy itself to be user friendly.

[–] normalmighty@programming.dev 12 points 1 year ago

This seems to be a big issue with the general fediverse community attitude to me. It reminds me a lot of the Linux community 10+ years ago, constantly downplaying some pretty huge technical hurdles that new people need to climb, and then wondering why it struggle so much to gain traction.

I found out quickly that the instance matters. California at exploding-heads is not the same thing as my California, and they won't be talking about fun hikes to do on the weekend over there.

[–] AlexWIWA@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago

It just feels like forums of old to me

[–] linoor 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I don’t think it’s bad, every instance has slightly different moderation rules. Reddit also has multiple variations of one subreddit, like offmychest and trueoffmychest.

[–] Cube6392 2 points 1 year ago

I'm probably going to be writing up a guide that tries to use non loaded language to describe the different flavors of lemmy for when my friend joins when Boost becomes available. But I actually really like that there's !politics@lemmy.world and it's very centered, there's !politics@beehaw.org and it leans left, and there's !politics@exploding-heads.com ans its very right wing conservative. I want to make a guide because I think the downside is none of the domains clearly denote the makeup of the moderation teams beliefs without some investment into exploring the fediverse and seeing what's what.

[–] domesticstreetcat@feddit.ch 8 points 1 year ago

If one sucks we can just hop to the other one. I like it.

[–] pulaskiwasright@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago

Reddit had duped of everything too. I’d rather subscribe to both and move my thumb a quarter centimeter to scroll past a dupe. I can deal with that.

[–] trifulau@feddit.it 6 points 1 year ago

It's okay for general topics like politics, news, ecc but for specific ones is just a waste to have multiple communities. Eventually, with more people joining lemmy, only one community per topic will prevail, I hope.

[–] sunbeam60@lemmy.one 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yes it is. But that doesn’t mean we should congeal onto one. Instead I’d strongly prefer clients being able to merge multiple communities into one feed. That way, if a node “drops” (defederated, closes, technical issue etc) the congealation (I’d like that to be the word, please) would still survive.

Discovery services could then be built around popular congealations.

[–] Mastersord@lemmy.fmhy.ml 1 points 1 year ago

Just like multi-reddits used to do.

[–] Mereo@lemmy.ca 6 points 1 year ago

Instances are like countries that have their own values and rules. For example, technology@beehaw.org will not be the same as technology@lemmy.world. Beehaw is a heavily moderated instance, while Lemmy.world is more “free”. What can be posted on technology@lemmy.world will not necessarily be the case on technology@beehaw.org.

[–] CeruleanRuin@lemmy.one 5 points 1 year ago

Why does it bother you?

Actually, I kind of like this aspect. I digress ... yes, there will just never be one !politics because this is the feature of the fediverse. The idea is that, should you get banned from a community for politely expressing even slight disagreement, there could be a community on a different instance for you to join or you could form your own . Sometimes mods can be heavy handed and the decentralized approach to Lemmy helps to lessen speech being stifled. Some people get some mod power and it goes to their head.

[–] communist 5 points 1 year ago

https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy-ui/issues/1113

Once this lands it'll be all the positives and none of the downsides, so, meh.

[–] ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

"Freedom of choice,

Is what you got,

Freedom from choice,

Is what you want."

DEVO
"Freedom of Coice"
Freedom of Choice
1980
[–] Ado@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Why is it annoying? What would happen if you subscribed to both?

[–] Bldck 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I would rather see instances focused on topics with niche communities within them.

For example, a lemmy.POLITICS instance with communities for WORLD, US, EU, LATAM, etc

[–] jecxjo@midwest.social 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I second this idea. But everyone wants to be king of their own castle so either mods need to share responsibility on a single community. Lemmy supports cross instance mods so no need to have multiple accounts.

[–] Bldck 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

We are still in the early days of the fediverse. Once this thing gets figured out and stabilized, I think we could see some progress in consolidating duplicate communities…

But does the broader group of users want this model?

[–] jecxjo@midwest.social 1 points 1 year ago

I think the majority of people want this. Posters and lurkers who want specific content. Especially for topics that don't have a constant flood of posts. Thinking the communities where you go to actively scroll instead of reading all/new.

Maybe a solution is coming up with personal lists. Add all communities for a topic and then scroll them all together.

[–] Fizz@lemmy.nz 2 points 1 year ago

They aren't repeat instances they are very different.

[–] Wahots@pawb.social 2 points 1 year ago

Honestly, I'm fine with it. If servers go down, we have multiple fallback communities

[–] Carter@feddit.uk 2 points 1 year ago

It's certainly the biggest annoyance to me so far. I like things to be streamlined and as simple as possible. Having multiple communities for the same topic is just messy.

[–] king_dead 2 points 1 year ago

Sounds good to me. Those big default subs were always trash and prone to brigading. Not that i think there was ever a state where a general political discussion group couldn't be trash but you get what i mean

[–] rufus@discuss.tchncs.de 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yeah. I too find it annoying.

[–] LifeInMultipleChoice@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Do you believe if you pick up the new york times it will have the same take as the bbc? I want more than 1 car magazine to exist. If one magazine starts to do things I don't enjoy I can use another. Example, threads makes a car magazine, has more user base and everyone flocks to it over time for more frequent content change. Now threads starts manipulating content and putting in more advertisements... either you now have to go through a big change, or you just go to motortrend for a while until they have to hopefully scale back ads and such to keep users.

[–] rufus@discuss.tchncs.de 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

idk. it's more like having 6 magazines about hyundai cars, i never know which of the ones to buy because they all look the same, and if i just buy half of them, the article i'm interested in is guaranteed to be in the one i didn't buy.

and one day they all vanish after neither one sold enough copies to make profit.

it splits the community, what is a bad thing if the community isn't super big to begin with. and it adds extra confusion to new users. and extra effort for people who want to stay up to date. and if i have a niche question i can't just ask many people at once. i first have to look up in which community i need to ask. or i just ask in every community and annoy the people who subscribed to multiple ones.... it's just not a good solution to anything...

the one thing where this would be a good thing is if the communities were reasonably different. different in topic, focus, a noticable different culture of discussion or moderation, something drastic enough to warrant people splitting up ... like your analogy with the nyt or bbc. but it's simply not the case for these communities.

[–] HobbitFoot@thelemmy.club 1 points 1 year ago

This is federstion

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